Proposals to change the All Ireland Football structures

[Ball Hopper]

My alternative championship format; basically it's four groups of eight linking directly to a straight knockout competition.

Stage one is the four groups of eight (using the four divisions currently used in the National Football League). The top four teams go into a semi-final, as is already done in division one (this will be done in all four divisions), the winner of the final goes through to a quarter final (and is promoted where applicable), the lower of the final goes into round one. The two losing semi-finalists go into the qualifiers against the teams that finished fifth and sixth, the draw is highest placed against sixth place and second highest placed against fifth, as an added bonus for their top four finish they get home advantage. The winner of the final goes through to round one. I would like to reiterate that this occurs in each division. The bottom two teams are out of the Championship (and there is a relegation play-off, when relegation is applicable). (I also thinking that maybe the bottom two teams from each division from each division get entered into some sort of shield for extra games and morale)

Stage two is straight knockout. There is a 'Side A' and a 'Side B'. On 'Side A' the losing finalist from Division One faces the qualifier from Division Two and the losing finalist from Division Two faces the qualifier from Division One in round one, then they face they face the champion from Division One/Two in the Quarter Finals.

On 'Side B' the losing finalist from Division Three faces face the qualifier from Division Four and the losing finalist from Division Four face the qualifier from Division Three and the winners face the champions of Division Three/Four in the Quarter Finals.


It sounds confusing/complicated the way I just explained it but in practice it's quite simple

So both Tyrone and Derry are not even allowed into the championship part for 2015?

Complete non-starter.

[deiseach]

Play till a result.  If level after 70 minutes, plus the usual 2 minutes, then the next score wins.  Very simple.  Referees are well used to playing for the draw, now change that mindset to a result must be realized.

Not too complicated. Just do it.

It's not complicated and it definitely has its virtues, but it's not what people want. Even the simple change that was introducing extra-time for games before the provincial semi-final stage, something that only impacted on 15/16 (I don't know what the story is with New York and replays) championship games caused uproar when it dawned on people what it meant.

Edit: although the more I think about it, the more I like it. The NFL (the American one) managed for years with a next-score-the-winner tiebreak, which amounted to a coin toss as the team who won it would grind their way into field goal range. I think they've changed it recently so each team gets the ball once. Maybe the first to get two scores?

[Rossfan]

So both Tyrone and Derry are not even allowed into the championship part for 2015?

Complete non-starter. GREAT IDEA !!! 

[Ball Hopper]

So both Tyrone and Derry are not even allowed into the championship part for 2015?

Complete non-starter. GREAT IDEA !!! 

Brilliant reposte. 

Wouldn't yer man Freud have some craic analyzing the GAA?

[AZOffaly]

In 10 minutes he'd be calling the Germans inbred bastards, and the Italians dirty f**kers.

[westbound]

If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.

let them organise friendlies then. I don't see see teams in the EPL, NFL or Pro12 needing a pre-season competiton to get them going.

I've no problem with that at all. But the point I was making was that it won't actually free up any time for club matches because the county managers will want the players for these friendlies, because they cant afford to be experimenting in the league if it has such importance.

[AZOffaly]

If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.

let them organise friendlies then. I don't see see teams in the EPL, NFL or Pro12 needing a pre-season competiton to get them going.

I've no problem with that at all. But the point I was making was that it won't actually free up any time for club matches because the county managers will want the players for these friendlies, because they cant afford to be experimenting in the league if it has such importance.

Actually the soccer teams do have pre-season competitions to get them going. Those 4 team tournaments are quite popular.

[muppet]

If the leagues takes such importance that it impacts a team's standing/seeding in the championship, then the pre-season competitions will have to be kept. There is no way that teams will go straight into such an important league competition without having played some games. If there is no pre-season comps (fbd, o'byrne cup etc.) then teams will just end up playing challenge matches, so we may as well keep the pre-season comps in that scenario.

let them organise friendlies then. I don't see see teams in the EPL, NFL or Pro12 needing a pre-season competiton to get them going.

I've no problem with that at all. But the point I was making was that it won't actually free up any time for club matches because the county managers will want the players for these friendlies, because they cant afford to be experimenting in the league if it has such importance.

Actually the soccer teams do have pre-season competitions to get them going. Those 4 team tournaments are quite popular.

Yea, we could have the O'Byrne Cup in Hong Kong or Singapore with 100,000 locals singing 'Come on ye boys in blue.' like they really, really mean it this time.

[Redhand Santa]

Still a lot of talk around this. I still think the proposal below would help solve a lot of issues and create a lot more meaningful games throughout the year (while still playing a similar number to currently). Would still have the usual issues like Dublin being too strong in Leinster but no system will solve that. I think it would be a very good starting point in helping find a solution. It won't help dual players etc but there isn't too many of them left.

Highlights

- The provincial championship will be the first competition played in the year and will be based on groups and there will be finals.
- Performance in the provincial championship will determine whether you enter an a or b all ireland championship.
- Teams who win the provincial championships will get seeded in pot 1 for the a championship draw and runners up in pot 2.
- Provincial championship winners and runners up will carry points into the group stages of the all ireland championship.
- Bonus points will awarded in the championship for teams scoring over 20 points to encourage attacking football.
- County players will play a minimum of 7 games for their clubs which will be the games that will determine which championship you play in.

County Season - Part 1 (Late Feb to early April)

Each province will be allocated a number of places in the a and b championship based on recent years performances. Based on recent years (and province size) a fair allocation may be 6 to ulster, 4 to leinster, 2 to munster and 2 to connacht. The 2 remaining places will be determined by play offs between the 7th ulster team. 3rd connacht team, 3rd munster team and 5th leinster team.

Ulster championship

- London will be added to this giving two groups of 5 teams with seedings based on prior year national league for first year. Each team will play each other once.
- Top 3 teams in each group will qualify for the a all ireland championship. Top 2 teams will qualify for the ulster semi finals.
- The two 4th placed teams will play off with the winner playing the 3rd placed team in connaught, with the winners of this qualifying for the A all ireland championship.
- There will be semi finals and finals. The winners will get 4 points start in their group for the all ireland championship and be top seeds and the runners up will get 2 and be second seeds. This will help maintain the importance of winning the championship particularly as group winners in the all ireland will play 4th placed team in other section in the quarter finals.

Leinster

- There will be 3 groups of 4 teams who will play each other once. Again seeding based on prior years national league for the first year.
- The group winners and best placed second team will qualify for the semi finals and qualify for the A All Ireland championship.
- The other two second placed teams will play each other with the losers going to the b championship and the winners playing the 3rd placed team in Munster with the winners of that getting into the A championship.
- As above there will be semi finals and the provincial winners will get 4 points start in their group in the all ireland championship and be top seeds and runners up will get 2 and be second seeds.

Connacht and Munster

- There will be 5/6 teams in each championship. Again these teams will play each other once.
- The top two teams in each championship will qualify for their provincial final.
- The third placed teams will have play offs against the 5th team in leinster/7th team in ulster with the winners getting into the a championship.
- The top two teams will play off in the provincial final - first will have home advantage (both provinces have teams capable of hosting it and might make earlier game more interesting). Again the winners will be top seed in the all ireland championship and get 4 points to start in their group and second place will be 2nd seeds and get 2 points to start with.

These fixtures will be played off weekly and be wrapped up within 7 weeks - starting say the 21/22nd feb and finishing 4/5 april.

Club Season - Part 1 (with county players) (18/19 April - 16/17 May)

Ideally each county will have a similar format.

In Tyrone there is 16 teams in each championship. These would be split into two groups of 8. Each team playing each other once and county players available for all games. The top 4 teams would make the county quarter finals and the bottom two would go into relegation play off games.
During this first part of the season the aim would be to play the first 5 games.

County Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 25/26 July)

- The A and B championship have been determined from the above. And there has been time to get all the fixtures sorted out and spread out over the various games over the weekends to get maximum exposure for them.
- There will be two groups of 8 in each championship with seeding as per above and points carried forward for provincial winners/runner up. The top 4 teams in each section will qualify for quarter finals and first will play 4th and 2nd 3rd giving incentive to come as high as possible.
- Teams will get bonus points for scoring over 20 points in a game to encourage positive football.
- Each team will play 3 games at home and 3 away and one neutral. This will allow the use of bigger grounds for big double headers including croke park.
- The games will be spread out over 9 weekends to allow for breaks.
- GAA to work with local councils to help promote games and have other events in the area to really sell the games. Consider beer tents etc and corporate end were possible building on what rugby has been doing in the area. Push season tickets (can have a home season ticket for the 3 games or extended one to cover away) and also ensure large grounds aren't being used were not applicable eg Derry may play a game or two in Owenbeg. Clubs can be rewarded directly for selling season tickets.

Club Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 5/6 September)

- County boards will need to come up with a decent summer league that can be sold to clubs and that they will have to buy into. Currently during this time of year too many games are held up cause county players aren't available. A meaningful separate league needs to be put in place without them to allow for regualr football. It could be say 11 games or maybe less and build in a divisional championship as well to improve quality. Club games could be played Friday nights to avoid clashes with county games and ensuring club players have the weekends free over the summer.

County Season Part 3 (8/9 August - 5/6 September)

- All Ireland quarter finals in A & B championship the 8/9 August, semi finals two weeks later and finals two weeks after that.

Club Season Part 3 (12/13 September - 31 October))

- Clubs play remaining 2 games of group from early season and then quarter finals/ semi finals and finals as well as promotion /relegation period during this time.
- Provincial championships and All Ireland club run off pre Christmas.

[Esmarelda]

RedhandSanta, I'll read your proposal in depth later but are you proposing a two-tier championship?

[thewobbler]

Still a lot of talk around this. I still think the proposal below would help solve a lot of issues and create a lot more meaningful games throughout the year (while still playing a similar number to currently). Would still have the usual issues like Dublin being too strong in Leinster but no system will solve that. I think it would be a very good starting point in helping find a solution. It won't help dual players etc but there isn't too many of them left.

Highlights

- The provincial championship will be the first competition played in the year and will be based on groups and there will be finals.
- Performance in the provincial championship will determine whether you enter an a or b all ireland championship.
- Teams who win the provincial championships will get seeded in pot 1 for the a championship draw and runners up in pot 2.
- Provincial championship winners and runners up will carry points into the group stages of the all ireland championship.
- Bonus points will awarded in the championship for teams scoring over 20 points to encourage attacking football.
- County players will play a minimum of 7 games for their clubs which will be the games that will determine which championship you play in.

County Season - Part 1 (Late Feb to early April)

Each province will be allocated a number of places in the a and b championship based on recent years performances. Based on recent years (and province size) a fair allocation may be 6 to ulster, 4 to leinster, 2 to munster and 2 to connacht. The 2 remaining places will be determined by play offs between the 7th ulster team. 3rd connacht team, 3rd munster team and 5th leinster team.

Ulster championship

- London will be added to this giving two groups of 5 teams with seedings based on prior year national league for first year. Each team will play each other once.
- Top 3 teams in each group will qualify for the a all ireland championship. Top 2 teams will qualify for the ulster semi finals.
- The two 4th placed teams will play off with the winner playing the 3rd placed team in connaught, with the winners of this qualifying for the A all ireland championship.
- There will be semi finals and finals. The winners will get 4 points start in their group for the all ireland championship and be top seeds and the runners up will get 2 and be second seeds. This will help maintain the importance of winning the championship particularly as group winners in the all ireland will play 4th placed team in other section in the quarter finals.

Leinster

- There will be 3 groups of 4 teams who will play each other once. Again seeding based on prior years national league for the first year.
- The group winners and best placed second team will qualify for the semi finals and qualify for the A All Ireland championship.
- The other two second placed teams will play each other with the losers going to the b championship and the winners playing the 3rd placed team in Munster with the winners of that getting into the A championship.
- As above there will be semi finals and the provincial winners will get 4 points start in their group in the all ireland championship and be top seeds and runners up will get 2 and be second seeds.

Connacht and Munster

- There will be 5/6 teams in each championship. Again these teams will play each other once.
- The top two teams in each championship will qualify for their provincial final.
- The third placed teams will have play offs against the 5th team in leinster/7th team in ulster with the winners getting into the a championship.
- The top two teams will play off in the provincial final - first will have home advantage (both provinces have teams capable of hosting it and might make earlier game more interesting). Again the winners will be top seed in the all ireland championship and get 4 points to start in their group and second place will be 2nd seeds and get 2 points to start with.

These fixtures will be played off weekly and be wrapped up within 7 weeks - starting say the 21/22nd feb and finishing 4/5 april.

Club Season - Part 1 (with county players) (18/19 April - 16/17 May)

Ideally each county will have a similar format.

In Tyrone there is 16 teams in each championship. These would be split into two groups of 8. Each team playing each other once and county players available for all games. The top 4 teams would make the county quarter finals and the bottom two would go into relegation play off games.
During this first part of the season the aim would be to play the first 5 games.

County Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 25/26 July)

- The A and B championship have been determined from the above. And there has been time to get all the fixtures sorted out and spread out over the various games over the weekends to get maximum exposure for them.
- There will be two groups of 8 in each championship with seeding as per above and points carried forward for provincial winners/runner up. The top 4 teams in each section will qualify for quarter finals and first will play 4th and 2nd 3rd giving incentive to come as high as possible.
- Teams will get bonus points for scoring over 20 points in a game to encourage positive football.
- Each team will play 3 games at home and 3 away and one neutral. This will allow the use of bigger grounds for big double headers including croke park.
- The games will be spread out over 9 weekends to allow for breaks.
- GAA to work with local councils to help promote games and have other events in the area to really sell the games. Consider beer tents etc and corporate end were possible building on what rugby has been doing in the area. Push season tickets (can have a home season ticket for the 3 games or extended one to cover away) and also ensure large grounds aren't being used were not applicable eg Derry may play a game or two in Owenbeg. Clubs can be rewarded directly for selling season tickets.

Club Season Part 2 (30/31 May - 5/6 September)

- County boards will need to come up with a decent summer league that can be sold to clubs and that they will have to buy into. Currently during this time of year too many games are held up cause county players aren't available. A meaningful separate league needs to be put in place without them to allow for regualr football. It could be say 11 games or maybe less and build in a divisional championship as well to improve quality. Club games could be played Friday nights to avoid clashes with county games and ensuring club players have the weekends free over the summer.

County Season Part 3 (8/9 August - 5/6 September)

- All Ireland quarter finals in A & B championship the 8/9 August, semi finals two weeks later and finals two weeks after that.

Club Season Part 3 (12/13 September - 31 October))

- Clubs play remaining 2 games of group from early season and then quarter finals/ semi finals and finals as well as promotion /relegation period during this time.
- Provincial championships and All Ireland club run off pre Christmas.

The biggest problem here Redhand Santa is that you actually aren't considering the county player's needs in this proposal.

Serious, first-choice county players are 100% focused on county football while the county season is still alive. While most won't say it out loud, club football is actually an inconvenience for these players during this time, as it increases their demands, breaks their routines, and plays havoc with their role and mindset.

Yet once a county season is over, county players can genuinely thrive in their roles as leaders of their clubs. They aren't distracted.

(It's slightly different for fringe county players, as they get competitive action and get to be big fish again, but that's a different kettle of fish.)



What your proposal would do is force players to obey two masters (pressure doesn't just come from managers, it comes from entire clubs, and in some cases, entire counties) throughout the football season. If I was a county player, I genuinely wouldn't thank you for that.

[Redhand Santa]

Esmarelda - yes and no. I'm proposing everyone enters their provincial championship and from their you will either qualify for an a or b championship. So everyone starts of in the same tier and has same chance of winning the championship. I appreciate a big problem could be how serious teams take the b championship. The only way to possibly solve it is to give the winners a chance to get back into the main championship at the quarter final stage.

Thewobbler - at the minute the players already have that problem. In my proposal at least I have set periods in the year that they will play club football and that they will be available for every game that impacts who wins the club championship and which championship you play in.

Introducing bonus points to league structures for high scoring could be one way to attempt to make the game more attacking.

My proposal are only a draft outline but I think they would be a lot better than what is currently there.

[shezam]

GAA have circulated a 85 page document to all counties with 18 proposals at the start of the week.

[neilthemac]

The simplest solutions are always the best.

Smaller pre season competitions (less games) played on round robin, with no finals.
Less league games (more divisions) with promotion and relegation of top/bottom teams (league final not needed)
Play off knockout provincial competitions within 6 weeks.
Open draw for proper All Ireland championship, provincial winners seeded into draw (first round bye), other teams seeded into 1st round or 2nd round games based on league and provincial record over 2 years.
No back doors. You get two chances to win a title.

Preseason should be about getting players up to fitness levels for the league
Less league games in the poor weather
Provincial Games will have set weekends allowing for club games in April/May/mid June
Much easier to plan All Ireland competition in June/July/August, allowing for club games in breaks between games.

[Rossfan]

GAA have circulated a 85 page document to all counties with 18 proposals at the start of the week.

Eighteen!!!
At least there's plenty to discuss anyway and they are all real proposals. Who was it said only journalists and Gaaboarders were talking about changing AI senior Inter County???
Hard to see an agreed proposal going to Congress 2016.