What would you call a second tier Competition?

[BennyHarp]

But surely if a second tier competition has the opportunity of entering the main championship at some stage that would allow the likes of Tipperary and the teams on the up a chance to get back in. Even some kind of promotion/relegation from year to year would mean that teams who are making strides still get a chance to have a go at the big boys.

Also would this not be better for a team like Tipp to have more games building momentum and confidence rather than having a first/second match every year against Cork/Kerry and slumping to a 6-10 point defeat!!

This is what I was going to post. People seem to think that once the two tier system is implemented, then thats it, they are condemned for life. The fact that its linked to the league gives every team the opportunity to play their way into the top tier championship. And the provincial championship gives everyone a second chance. Surely a team who is making progress via promotion may be better prepared than a team who barely wins a game in Div 4 trotting out to get hammered once or twice a year. Tipperary has been used as an example here, maybe they will make damn sure they get promoted next year, thus making for a very exciting league div 3.

[Syferus]

Playing Carlow and London won't make Tipp anymore competitive with the big boys than they already are. If that's a selling point it's a total non-starter.

[AZOffaly]

There's no doubt Tipp need to get up to Division 2 at least, and hopefully Division 1. That shouldn't be a prerequisite to allow them enter the championship though, it's basically a requirement to improve the team and is a target within Tipp already.

[westbound]

Since the leagues went to divisions 1,2,3 & 4 (from 1A,1B,2A & 2B) the top teams have gotten stronger and stronger. These teams have more or less stayed consistently in the top division and are consistently playing against the top teams. As a result they have pulled further away from the chasing pack with the yo-yo ing of promoted teams from division 2 proving this point.

A two tier championship would have the same effect in my opinion, leaving the top teams to pull further away from the chasing pack.

Teams need to be playing regularly against the best teams to improve.

[BennyHarp]

There's no doubt Tipp need to get up to Division 2 at least, and hopefully Division 1. That shouldn't be a prerequisite to allow them enter the championship though, it's basically a requirement to improve the team and is a target within Tipp already.

If they are good enough they will qualify, it may take a year but it will happen. Plus, a run in the Munster championship still gives them access to the top competition EVERY year. Also, winning a second tier fast tracks that promotion. We will always find a few anomalies and decent teams may get relegated but a think, teams working their way into the competition isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[AZOffaly]

I still don't understand what problem this addresses? It sounds like change for changes sake.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Perhaps we could have 3 bands?

counties with less than 60,000 people
counties with 60,00- 600,000
counties with > 600,000

Then we could further subdivide them into counties where hardly any hurling is played to counties where half the county plays hurling seriously.

[Syferus]

Can we just make Dublin play every game with 13 men? I think everyone would be happy then.

[dublin7]

Since the leagues went to divisions 1,2,3 & 4 (from 1A,1B,2A & 2B) the top teams have gotten stronger and stronger. These teams have more or less stayed consistently in the top division and are consistently playing against the top teams. As a result they have pulled further away from the chasing pack with the yo-yo ing of promoted teams from division 2 proving this point.

A two tier championship would have the same effect in my opinion, leaving the top teams to pull further away from the chasing pack.

Teams need to be playing regularly against the best teams to improve.

Longford/Wicklow/Carlow etc. could play against Dublin every week and never improve.  Only by taking on teams of similar standard consistently then they can improve. 

The National League is criminally under rated.  This is the one time of the year when every county gets the opportunity to complete against other counties of similar standards.  If you are good enough you go up a level/division and the following year play teams of a higher standard and if you are not good enough you drop a level to compete against weaker sides more similar in ability.

That is the basic approach for two tier championship. Tipperary for example might start in second tier, but if they reached the final they would gain promotion to the top level.  Similarly two worst performing teams in top tier would be relegated and have to compete in second tier the following season.  Almost every other sport in the world uses a league based system for their major tournaments, only the GAA seems to make the knock out competition the primary competition.

Second tier winners could also win team holiday or some other incentive.  Gives teams like Clare/Longford/Limerick for example who have no chance of winning a provincial title any time soon a realistic shot at major silverware.

The current set up of teams training 5/6 days a week for 6 months to only play maybe 2 games & be out of the championship before the end of June is madness.  It's no coincidence with the demands made on players becoming more & more ridiculous/time consuming that lads are dropping themselves off panels to head off to USA/OZ etc. 

[westbound]

I still don't understand what problem this addresses? It sounds like change for changes sake.

Agreed!

I've said this a few times too - What problem are we trying to solve.

There is no doubt there are several problems in the GAA, but as far as I can see the only problem that a two tier championship would solve is that the top teams wouldn't be hammering the weaker teams.
BUT, it's not a proper solution, it's only hiding the problem by not allowing the top teams to play the weaker teams.
What we should be aiming to do to stop the top teams hammering the weaker teams is trying to improve the standards in the weaker counties. Having division 3 (or 4) teams continually playing teams at their own level will not improve the standard of those counties.

[westbound]

Since the leagues went to divisions 1,2,3 & 4 (from 1A,1B,2A & 2B) the top teams have gotten stronger and stronger. These teams have more or less stayed consistently in the top division and are consistently playing against the top teams. As a result they have pulled further away from the chasing pack with the yo-yo ing of promoted teams from division 2 proving this point.

A two tier championship would have the same effect in my opinion, leaving the top teams to pull further away from the chasing pack.

Teams need to be playing regularly against the best teams to improve.

Longford/Wicklow/Carlow etc. could play against Dublin every week and never improve.  Only by taking on teams of similar standard consistently then they can improve. 

The National League is criminally under rated.  This is the one time of the year when every county gets the opportunity to complete against other counties of similar standards.  If you are good enough you go up a level/division and the following year play teams of a higher standard and if you are not good enough you drop a level to compete against weaker sides more similar in ability.

That is the basic approach for two tier championship. Tipperary for example might start in second tier, but if they reached the final they would gain promotion to the top level.  Similarly two worst performing teams in top tier would be relegated and have to compete in second tier the following season.  Almost every other sport in the world uses a league based system for their major tournaments, only the GAA seems to make the knock out competition the primary competition.

Second tier winners could also win team holiday or some other incentive.  Gives teams like Clare/Longford/Limerick for example who have no chance of winning a provincial title any time soon a realistic shot at major silverware.

The current set up of teams training 5/6 days a week for 6 months to only play maybe 2 games & be out of the championship before the end of June is madness.  It's no coincidence with the demands made on players becoming more & more ridiculous/time consuming that lads are dropping themselves off panels to head off to USA/OZ etc.

We'll have to agree to disagree here!

I believe that teams will NEVER improve by playing teams at their own level. Teams need to be playing at a higher level to experience the higher intensity, pace and skill levels of the top teams. It is by playing at these levels that players can get used to it and improve themselves.


I do agree that the league is very important.
However, as I said above, I actually think that the current league structure has contributed to the top teams pulling further away from the rest.

[dublin7]

I still don't understand what problem this addresses? It sounds like change for changes sake.

Agreed!

I've said this a few times too - What problem are we trying to solve.

There is no doubt there are several problems in the GAA, but as far as I can see the only problem that a two tier championship would solve is that the top teams wouldn't be hammering the weaker teams.
BUT, it's not a proper solution, it's only hiding the problem by not allowing the top teams to play the weaker teams.
What we should be aiming to do to stop the top teams hammering the weaker teams is trying to improve the standards in the weaker counties. Having division 3 (or 4) teams continually playing teams at their own level will not improve the standard of those counties.

The point of a promotion/relegation league set is that division 3/4 teams for example wouldn't be competing against the same teams every year.  Simple system that works for other sports. Wexford are in div 4 next season.  They go out beat every one, then they get promoted & play teams of higher stand in div 3 the next season.They would be starting out each summer, with say at least six games they believe they can win rather than training all winter to fill a fixture against dublin in the 1st game and get beat by 15/20 points.

[AZOffaly]

But sure isn't that exactly what we have at the moment in the League? That's why counties try to get up to Division 1 and 2. To stretch themselves and improve.

The Championship should be about measuring yourself against whomever you have to face. The League is how you improve.

[Mayo4Sam14]

Shite

[BennyHarp]

But sure isn't that exactly what we have at the moment in the League? That's why counties try to get up to Division 1 and 2. To stretch themselves and improve.

The Championship should be about measuring yourself against whomever you have to face. The League is how you improve.

If a team like Tipp get beat by Armagh that's their summer over. If for example they got a meaningful championship run in the second tier, maybe an easy enough first round v London or Carlow, then won out in a competition which this year would most likely have included Westmeath, Kildare, Limerick, Louth, Wexford, Longford etc (each of these counties standing a realistic chance of winning the competition) playing big games in the summer months culminating in an AI final on the 3rd in Sept in front of a packed Croke Park. Would you not say that's how they improve? Would you not think that would bring the county on and prepare them for a tilt at the big teams the following year? Oh and by the way, they still got the opportunity to compete against Kerry and Cork in Munster.

Why doesn't every county in the country just have one big open draw for their senior championship? The suggestion would be laughed out of town by every club in the county. But that's what we have at county level.