Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 53176 times)

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1155 on: May 05, 2017, 11:04:14 AM »
Going by Owen's long post above I'm led to believe we have to pay school and Uni fees, don't get any State pensions, have no Health system, can't go to school unless we're Catholic or C of I.
Also that Catholic schools in the 6 Cos take any pupil.

I'm off to Fermanagh in the morning...... but will have to buy a tractor to travel on the roads there.

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armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1156 on: May 05, 2017, 11:11:52 AM »
This thread tends to go around in circles. From time to time you get a detailed discussion of what about this or what about that. In my opinion, this is largely pointless. There was a time when the ROI could not afford services and that time has had some effect on the structure of services today, in many cases those limitations are recognised and being addressed. Now it can afford comparable services and in general, in a democratic society, it will adopt a service provision that Irish people want. The needs of people in Fermanagh are not much different from those in Monaghan.

The issue is a simple one, the services in NI are not paid for by people of NI. More seriously, nobody seems to have any belief that this will ever change or even that it should ever change. Nationalists have moved from being third class citizens to being second class citizens and seem happy to look at the glass half full rather than the remaining short measure. The statement about " that you believe that you are governing yourself" in the previous post was one of the most craven that I have seen.

But this is not going to get better, NI may well lose more of its economy and much of its overinflated public services, while the ROI becomes significantly more prosperous than the UK and more noticeably so. It is not a case of wait a while and the problem will go away, it won't. Perhaps there isn't a solution, but some effort to find one is needed and unfortunately, NI "nationalist" parties haven't even tried, perhaps reflecting the apathy of their voters.

In my opinion, there exists an opportunity in the current situation to link NI more closely with the ROI economy, without fiddling with flegs and the like for the present. If this makes NI more like the ROI economically then the need for a subsidy greatly reduces and the debate can be held on other grounds.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 11:37:32 AM by armaghniac »
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1157 on: May 05, 2017, 11:15:16 AM »
I think the big question is what it would take for NI to achieve its economic potential. Cos it is nowhere near that today.
Last of the choc-ices there now

yellowcard

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1158 on: May 05, 2017, 11:27:34 AM »

I could go on.  Thank God for the UK government's willingness to continue to pump billions into a small rural region which will never provide a return on its investment.

This bit in particular pisses me off. Such shite. I'm sure before independence there were many in the south who had a similar attitude (there certainly wasn't much affection for the rebels in 1916) - no confidence in themselves or their fellow countrymen that they could make a success of governing themselves, rather stand cap in hand for the 'benevolent invaders' who were doing them a favour by governing them. Thank god that changed. You should be embarrassed.

Not embarrassed in the slightest.  I live in the real world.  There is nothing in the RoI that can compare with the government provided services in NI that we now find to be not at the levels we would want.  All healthcare is free, you can pay if you want but no one pays €40 each time to visit their GP or for hospital care provided for all illness.  Social care is available to all who need it, yes it could be better but it is miles ahead of RoI provision.  The NHS owns and runs all of our hospitals for the people regardless of ability to pay and religious orders are not able to dictate the services that are provided. Nursery, primary and secondary education in NI is free to all, fee paying schools are virtually negligible and deal with mostly foreign children being boarded by their parent. Class sizes are smaller than in RoI and schools are better resourced with a much better schools' estate.  The wealthy have to send their children to the same schools as the less well off unlike the RoI where segregation by ability to pay school fees separates society.  No child is turned away from a primary school because his/her parents didn't bring the child for baptism in the Catholic Church.  The elderly are looked after with a good state pension, social care available regardless of ability to pay but with those with assets being asked to pay towards their care and the health care provided to them is free and readily available.  While housing could be improved, we have sufficient stock for the people and the HE and housing associations continue to build housing for rent which is both of a high standard and affordable. For those unable to afford the rents the social care system will provide assistance, not always enough but it is there. In the public sector, our workers have been forced to take pay freezes and lower than inflation pay increases but none of them have been forced into taking significant pay cuts to pay for the billions of euros that were taken from the banks by fellow citizens and now have to be paid back by ordinary citizens as enforced by the Euro bankers who effectively run the RoI economy as it pays back its debts for the bailout.

None of this level of provision in NI could be afforded by the RoI as it cannot be provided to people living within its jurisdiction.  Yes we live in the soft North but you have to recognise it is provided by the UK government on the basis that much more is paid into NI than can be harvested in terms of tax income.  Does this make me feel less Irish than any other person on the island? No.  As I said at the outset, I live in the real world, I didn't nor did anyone of my generation or those ahead of me create this situation of dependence on the UK government and until there is a better offer from the RoI, I do not see any need to move to a UI.  Will Brexit change this?  Who knows at this stage.  Do the people in the RoI jurisdiction want to take on the full cost of running NI?  I would believe they won't when they realise the true cost.  Is it worth generations living in austerity in a UI so that you believe that you are governing yourself?  The reality is that we in the six counties will not be governing ourselves in a UI, we have a small proportion of the population and around half of them will have no allegiance to any of the governing parties.  It is so easy to have views that an UI will answer all our problems when it is not on the horizon within the lifetime of people of voting age in NI.

Just have to point out some inaccuracies here. The state pension in NI is £122 as opposed to €230 in ROI. Other forms of welfare are considerably higher as well if you want to go down that route.

In terms of public sector pay, rates are still considerably higher in ROI than in NI, the Luas drivers went on strike over only getting €55k a year ffs. Wages in the private sector are also much higher in ROI than in NI, I'd hazard a guess probably somewhere in the region of 20-25%. Hence the reason a considerably greater number of people travel from NI to work in ROI rather than vice versa. You go on about public services being less costly, which is true in the case of healthcare but much less so in terms of education. The education system in the south is pretty decent, you only have to look at the strength of a young educated workforce coming out of college. You point out all of the negatives but fail to look at the bigger picture.

Yes, there would be an initial cost in unification which may take a generation to rectify but I believe in the longer term it would be much better for the country as a whole and particularly the north. The north is becoming more of a basket case year on year and Brexit will only serve to increase the divide in prosperity between north and south.     
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 11:29:33 AM by yellowcard »

Avondhu star

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1159 on: May 05, 2017, 01:09:26 PM »
Unification of the territory is of no use without unification of the people. There is so much economic potentials in the areas of IT, pharmaceutical, agriculture, tourism, green energy etc.
These can only be achieved through EU membership, attractive tax rate for foreign investment, possible acceptance of a military alliance and a national movement which ensures minorities have nothing to fear from majority rule
Warning. Don't try this at home unless in the company of a responsible adult

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1160 on: May 19, 2017, 02:59:41 PM »
A poll reveals 51 per cent back a vote over the North’s place in the UK in the next 5 years.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1017253/northern-ireland-politics-border-poll/

Now I don't think this will pass first time out, but it is absolutely essential that they are not allowed hold one, Brexit style, where there is no clarity on what the issues are. You'd need a neutral body e.g. OECD to measure the actual state of the NI economy and taxes etc, you'd need the Irish government to say how they say it and the British to say both what would happen if yes but also if no, in terms of long term plans. if it is thought necessary to hold one then it should be necessary to clarify these things.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1161 on: May 19, 2017, 07:05:40 PM »
A poll reveals 51 per cent back a vote over the North’s place in the UK in the next 5 years.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1017253/northern-ireland-politics-border-poll/

Now I don't think this will pass first time out, but it is absolutely essential that they are not allowed hold one, Brexit style, where there is no clarity on what the issues are. You'd need a neutral body e.g. OECD to measure the actual state of the NI economy and taxes etc, you'd need the Irish government to say how they say it and the British to say both what would happen if yes but also if no, in terms of long term plans. if it is thought necessary to hold one then it should be necessary to clarify these things.
Good post.
There would also have to be an investigation or series of investigations  into the unionist education problem, why productivity is so poor, what ending the border might mean for economic activity, what the British have neglected etc
Last of the choc-ices there now

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1162 on: June 01, 2017, 03:44:58 PM »
The evolution of the 6 county population

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AQMP

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1163 on: June 01, 2017, 03:49:46 PM »
A poll reveals 51 per cent back a vote over the North’s place in the UK in the next 5 years.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1017253/northern-ireland-politics-border-poll/

Now I don't think this will pass first time out, but it is absolutely essential that they are not allowed hold one, Brexit style, where there is no clarity on what the issues are. You'd need a neutral body e.g. OECD to measure the actual state of the NI economy and taxes etc, you'd need the Irish government to say how they say it and the British to say both what would happen if yes but also if no, in terms of long term plans. if it is thought necessary to hold one then it should be necessary to clarify these things.
Good post.
There would also have to be an investigation or series of investigations  into the unionist education problem, why productivity is so poor, what ending the border might mean for economic activity, what the British have neglected etc

Agreed, quite clearly being part of the UK has stunted the economic development of the North.

BennyCake

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1164 on: June 01, 2017, 04:01:16 PM »
A poll reveals 51 per cent back a vote over the North’s place in the UK in the next 5 years.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1017253/northern-ireland-politics-border-poll/

Now I don't think this will pass first time out, but it is absolutely essential that they are not allowed hold one, Brexit style, where there is no clarity on what the issues are. You'd need a neutral body e.g. OECD to measure the actual state of the NI economy and taxes etc, you'd need the Irish government to say how they say it and the British to say both what would happen if yes but also if no, in terms of long term plans. if it is thought necessary to hold one then it should be necessary to clarify these things.
Good post.
There would also have to be an investigation or series of investigations  into the unionist education problem, why productivity is so poor, what ending the border might mean for economic activity, what the British have neglected etc

Agreed, quite clearly being part of the UK has stunted the economic development of the North.

As long as Unionists can fly their fleg and Britain hang on to their piece of Ireland, that's all either party will ever care about. Everything else is an irrelevance.

Lar Naparka

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1165 on: June 01, 2017, 04:15:37 PM »
A poll reveals 51 per cent back a vote over the North’s place in the UK in the next 5 years.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1017253/northern-ireland-politics-border-poll/

Now I don't think this will pass first time out, but it is absolutely essential that they are not allowed hold one, Brexit style, where there is no clarity on what the issues are. You'd need a neutral body e.g. OECD to measure the actual state of the NI economy and taxes etc, you'd need the Irish government to say how they say it and the British to say both what would happen if yes but also if no, in terms of long term plans. if it is thought necessary to hold one then it should be necessary to clarify these things.
Good post.
There would also have to be an investigation or series of investigations  into the unionist education problem, why productivity is so poor, what ending the border might mean for economic activity, what the British have neglected etc

Agreed, quite clearly being part of the UK has stunted the economic development of the North.

As long as Unionists can fly their fleg and Britain hang on to their piece of Ireland, that's all either party will ever care about. Everything else is an irrelevance.
I think he Brits can't wait to get out. One of Bertie's ministers once told me that with the naval base on Lough Foyle no longer needed to control the North Atlantic, they have no strategic reason to hang about.

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1166 on: June 01, 2017, 04:38:07 PM »
Once they'd be happy Ireland wouldn't be a threat to their Western flank they'd be delighted to be out of here.
Of course if a majority of Scots would ever do the decent thing we could speed up the whole process.
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AhNowRef

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1167 on: June 01, 2017, 04:39:39 PM »
The evolution of the 6 county population

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Thats excellent ... whens that from exactly ? .. i..e what date are these figures from & are they from a census or what?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 04:41:42 PM by AhNowRef »

dec

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1168 on: June 01, 2017, 05:19:00 PM »
The evolution of the 6 county population

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Thats excellent ... whens that from exactly ? .. i..e what date are these figures from & are they from a census or what?

At this link it says 2014

http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=241162.0

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1169 on: June 01, 2017, 06:18:19 PM »
I imagine this is based on the 2011 census, which would imply that things had already moved along a bit.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B