Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 190234 times)

tbrick18

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2745 on: February 21, 2020, 02:40:42 PM »
I'm seriously confused about the discussion on this thread  :o
There's seems to be a lot of anti SF rhetoric from posters north and south.

Because SF carry on, both the coat trailing and the fantasy economics,  is an important obstacle to a united Ireland, nationalists obviously resent this.

Examples? I'd consider myself a nationalist but I don't resent something I haven't seen an example of..


Quote
There's seems to be an assumption that in a UI world, the Dublin government will set all the rules and that NI will fall in behind the taxation, health etc currently in place in ROI.
I'd guess things wouldn't be as simple as that. I could see a scenario where NI still exists in it's own right. In fact, it could be very similar to the situation today with Westminster being replaced by the Irish government with certain powers still being devolved to the NI Assembly. If you consider that that the Unionist population of NI would have to be catered for, I don't think this is beyond the realms of possibility as that type of government may make them more comfortable with the UI scenario.

All just thoughts and not intended to take away from anyone else's opinion.

What is the point in continuing partition in a united Ireland? Why should Donegal be separated from Derry? Why should people in Belcoo and Blacklion go to different hospitals, schools etc?

That's your view of what a UI would look like in the case of there being a devolved NI assembly. Not necessarily fact. Whether or not people in Belcoo and Blacklion go to different hospitals would be determined as part of a UI strategy on health I would have thought. That wouldn't meant there still wouldn't be a devolved NI assembly.
Serious question, is your view of a UI one where the Dublin government has complete control north and south? If so, how would you see the unionist community represented politically? DUP part of the Dublin government? Honestly interested in your perspective...


balladmaker

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2746 on: February 21, 2020, 04:18:14 PM »
I'm seriously confused about the discussion on this thread  :o
There's seems to be a lot of anti SF rhetoric from posters north and south.

Because SF carry on, both the coat trailing and the fantasy economics,  is an important obstacle to a united Ireland, nationalists obviously resent this.



Quote
There's seems to be an assumption that in a UI world, the Dublin government will set all the rules and that NI will fall in behind the taxation, health etc currently in place in ROI.
I'd guess things wouldn't be as simple as that. I could see a scenario where NI still exists in it's own right. In fact, it could be very similar to the situation today with Westminster being replaced by the Irish government with certain powers still being devolved to the NI Assembly. If you consider that that the Unionist population of NI would have to be catered for, I don't think this is beyond the realms of possibility as that type of government may make them more comfortable with the UI scenario.

All just thoughts and not intended to take away from anyone else's opinion.

What is the point in continuing partition in a united Ireland? Why should Donegal be separated from Derry? Why should people in Belcoo and Blacklion go to different hospitals, schools etc?

+1.  Partition has failed everyone, irrespective of religion.  It's just that a large part of the north don't realise it yet due to having public service jobs propped up by the Westminster government.  Was doing a count of immediate friends the other day, 75% of them are working in the civil service in the north.  Although not a scientific analysis, I wouldn't consider that to be normal in any society.  The question has to be asked where is the Intel plant in the north employing thousands, Apple, HP, IBM, Facebook, Google etc. etc. etc.  NI is a basket case, and that needs to be realised by everyone.  Not that the RoI is a utopia either, but removal of partition and the sooner a true all island economy is in place the better for all .... and away from any Westminster influence.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 04:20:15 PM by balladmaker »

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2747 on: February 21, 2020, 05:06:39 PM »
Switzerland has something like 22 self Governing Cantons.
They're not doing too bad.
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2748 on: February 21, 2020, 05:51:29 PM »
I'm seriously confused about the discussion on this thread  :o
There's seems to be a lot of anti SF rhetoric from posters north and south.

Because SF carry on, both the coat trailing and the fantasy economics,  is an important obstacle to a united Ireland, nationalists obviously resent this.



Quote
There's seems to be an assumption that in a UI world, the Dublin government will set all the rules and that NI will fall in behind the taxation, health etc currently in place in ROI.
I'd guess things wouldn't be as simple as that. I could see a scenario where NI still exists in it's own right. In fact, it could be very similar to the situation today with Westminster being replaced by the Irish government with certain powers still being devolved to the NI Assembly. If you consider that that the Unionist population of NI would have to be catered for, I don't think this is beyond the realms of possibility as that type of government may make them more comfortable with the UI scenario.

All just thoughts and not intended to take away from anyone else's opinion.

What is the point in continuing partition in a united Ireland? Why should Donegal be separated from Derry? Why should people in Belcoo and Blacklion go to different hospitals, schools etc?

It'd be a transitional arrangement. Two states have been separate for a century, with not much cooperation until around the time of the Anglo Irish Agreement. You can't just weld them together overnight. I'd say there'd have to be some sort of role for Stormont as a glorified county council in the immediate aftermath of a UI. People talk about East Germany as an example, but I think the more interesting examples are Hong Kong and Macau after the handover to China. They remained as Special Administrative Regions to smooth the transition of power from Britain to China.

Health and education systems have grown apart hugely, it's going to take time to get them aligned, and it'd be an opportunity to reform both for the better. Are there aspects of the northern system that could be adopted in the south, and vice versa? Maybe. It could take five years to figure that out.

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2749 on: February 21, 2020, 06:05:16 PM »
It'd be a transitional arrangement. Two states have been separate for a century, with not much cooperation until around the time of the Anglo Irish Agreement. You can't just weld them together overnight. I'd say there'd have to be some sort of role for Stormont as a glorified county council in the immediate aftermath of a UI. People talk about East Germany as an example, but I think the more interesting examples are Hong Kong and Macau after the handover to China. They remained as Special Administrative Regions to smooth the transition of power from Britain to China.

Health and education systems have grown apart hugely, it's going to take time to get them aligned, and it'd be an opportunity to reform both for the better. Are there aspects of the northern system that could be adopted in the south, and vice versa? Maybe. It could take five years to figure that out.

I think these are terrible examples.
Hong Kong remains a special area for 50 years because its people never wanted to be part of China in the first place, it is not to smooth the transition, it is to delay the transition. If a majority of people in NI vote for a UI then it will not like Hong Kong.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2750 on: February 21, 2020, 06:20:27 PM »
It'd be a transitional arrangement. Two states have been separate for a century, with not much cooperation until around the time of the Anglo Irish Agreement. You can't just weld them together overnight. I'd say there'd have to be some sort of role for Stormont as a glorified county council in the immediate aftermath of a UI. People talk about East Germany as an example, but I think the more interesting examples are Hong Kong and Macau after the handover to China. They remained as Special Administrative Regions to smooth the transition of power from Britain to China.

Health and education systems have grown apart hugely, it's going to take time to get them aligned, and it'd be an opportunity to reform both for the better. Are there aspects of the northern system that could be adopted in the south, and vice versa? Maybe. It could take five years to figure that out.

I think these are terrible examples.
Hong Kong remains a special area for 50 years because its people never wanted to be part of China in the first place, it is not to smooth the transition, it is to delay the transition. If a majority of people in NI vote for a UI then it will not like Hong Kong.

There'd be a sizable minority in the north opposed to reunification. I think a transition period is essential if the place is as polarised then as it is now. The more progress that's made on desegregating the place (starting with the education system) the less need there would be for a transition period. But you try explaining that to the "we demand a border poll right this minute" crowd in SF.

Sportacus

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2751 on: February 21, 2020, 09:45:43 PM »
I wish Sinn Fein reps would stop tweeting big plastery green white and orange Time For Irish Unity graphics.  Can稚 see how that wins any hearts and minds in the Unionist or middle ground community, who will be needed and have every right to be accommodated.

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2752 on: February 22, 2020, 12:45:02 AM »
I wish Sinn Fein reps would stop tweeting big plastery green white and orange Time For Irish Unity graphics.  Can稚 see how that wins any hearts and minds in the Unionist or middle ground community, who will be needed and have every right to be accommodated.
SF's MO is to constantly demand that the Brits deliver something they know full well they're not going to get, so then they whinge to their supporters about how unfairly treated they are at the hands of the evil Brits.

Chief

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2753 on: February 22, 2020, 08:17:27 AM »
I知 baffled by the implicit idea by some on here that if one stops asking for something that is how you値l get it...

bannside

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2754 on: February 22, 2020, 09:15:51 AM »
Exactly Sportacus. Middle ground unionists who are thinking "you know under the right circumstances a UI might not be so bad" that's where the battle will be won or lost. That's exactly the type of mindset that needs to be won over, SF need to play a bit more to that gallery instead of their own hard core who are already sold. Come out you black and tans politics doesn't provide much inspiration for them.

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2755 on: February 22, 2020, 01:32:38 PM »
I知 baffled by the implicit idea by some on here that if one stops asking for something that is how you値l get it...

Asking for it is no use, that's like the kid in Donegal writing to Klopp asking Liverpool to ease up. You need to work for it, blathering about it is no help.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2756 on: February 22, 2020, 06:46:58 PM »
I知 baffled by the implicit idea by some on here that if one stops asking for something that is how you値l get it...

You have the ask the right people. SF seem to think that if you pester the Brits for long enough they'll say "Okay then, here's your united Ireland." They need to be asking middle-of-the-road unionists what they can do to make them feel more comfortable in a UI when the inevitable happens.

JPGJOHNNYG

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2757 on: February 24, 2020, 01:07:57 PM »
Latest UI poll

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2020/02/24/news/border-poll-outcome-on-a-knife-edge-survey-suggests-1850028/content.html

You can bet your life on it not getting anywhere near the same coverage as Tonges survey last week. A survey that he himself noted when the dont knows, weighting and voting patterns were taken into count had the figure around 40% pro UI not the 29% spunked all over by the media
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 01:11:26 PM by JPGJOHNNYG »

JPGJOHNNYG

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