Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 121375 times)

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2205 on: March 15, 2018, 08:55:12 AM »
The Good Friday Agreement, which we should all be supporting, recognises the sensitivity of flags and symbols in the north. We should all behave accordingly and stop using flags as territorial markers. In a normal country flags are used to unite people, in the north they're used to divide.
Sorry but no it doesn't really, the Union Fleg still flies at all official functions and designated days. NI soccer fly the Ulster Banner and play the Queen. As I have stated previously when you go to a GAA match it is one of the few events that flies the Tricolour and plays the anthem and long may that continue. In the same way the soul Frank McClorey thinks nationalists should just suck it up and stand for the Queen, unioionists should do like wise at GAA matches.

Avondhu star

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2206 on: March 15, 2018, 11:40:10 AM »
Flags and symbols are important to people. If one side can't accept that the other side wish to maintain allegiances, recognise and remember their dead then what is the Good Friday agreement all about.
You can't just cherry pick what part you wish

« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 11:44:17 AM by Avondhu star »
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Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2207 on: March 15, 2018, 01:25:03 PM »
Unionists seem to cherry pick all the time and got worse since that Foster became leader of DUPUDA.
Usual crap - only Protestant unionists can be real victims
Anyone killed by Security forces can't be victims
Security forces should be  exempt from prosecution or investigation
Can't have bilingual road signs like they have in Wales and Scotland
And so on and so forth.....
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2208 on: April 05, 2018, 07:34:07 AM »
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

The Cairo gang.

Fairly clear that he orchestrated this.

Completely clear that he had popular support for his overall goal.
It's clear that the democratic process was being frustrated/denied.

But that doesn't mean anything goes. Did he have popular support for a campaign of violence or this act of violence? What options did he have? Did he conform to the rules of war (admittedly pre Geneva convention)?

I don't have the answers to those last bits.

Pre the execution of the 1916 rebels it was clear that the armed movement didn't have much popular support for armed insurrection that is well documented.
The homerule bill was being stifled and whatever in Westminster during WW1 and beyond, but at the same time due to gerrymandered in build unionist majority and abuse of power in the north the nationalist minority there would not have had a whole pile of options either as can be seen by the way the civil rights movements were met on the streets across the north which were by and large peaceful. There was no movement to a common ground by unionists then before the IRA were able to function.

Is there much of a difference in post 1916 Dublin to late 60's, early 70's Belfast or Derry?

So what is the link?

I was sober last Saturday during the day. But I was drunk on Saturday night. Therefore the darkness caused the drunkenness??? No need to look at other factors??

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2209 on: April 05, 2018, 07:37:33 AM »
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

Show me the popular support for the IRA during the troubles?

What were the results of elections the NAZI's were running in France?

So there wasn't 100 thousand people at Bobby Sands funeral? Would that qualify as popular support?

No it wouldn't. Where were these 100 thousand people during the other IRA funerals?

Have a wee think about why they went to that funeral and not that of a bomber, gun man etc

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2210 on: April 05, 2018, 07:38:47 AM »
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

Show me the popular support for the IRA during the troubles?

What were the results of elections the NAZI's were running in France?

So there wasn't 100 thousand people at Bobby Sands funeral? Would that qualify as popular support?

Bobby Sands become a nationalist hero because of his act of civil disobedience not his violent actions. How many went to the funerals of Joe Cahill, Seamus Twomney and Brendan Hughes?

So the thousands in attendance were there because of the hunger strike whilst not supporting what got the men jailed? Don't buy that 1.

So was the weather wild bad at the other IRA funerals then?

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2211 on: April 05, 2018, 07:39:48 AM »
Could ye move on from Funerals please?

Funerals and armed republicanism are inextricably linked

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2212 on: April 05, 2018, 07:42:33 AM »
Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

Well lots of people will use economics as part of their reasoning. You might as well start to prepare yourself for that now, because it isn't going to change. Maybe calling them names will make you feel better and so very grown up. Not sure it win any votes though

If I was to drag some young fella into a side street and give him a beating around the knees and ankles would you that behaviour to display the characteristics of say bullying or thuggery?


So just a criminal then?

Well he certainly was a criminal.

I called him a bully, a thug and a renegade. He certainly was all those things.

If you want to drag me into a debate on the hunger strike then plough on. My views won't surprise you. An horrific way to die. An horrific way to let someone die. Little credit to be attributed to any side.

would you consider every IRA/INLA member a criminal?

The easy way out of that one is to say that membership of a proscribed organisation is a criminal activity

To engage in what I think you are getting at then yes I absolutely consider that shootings, bombings, punishment beatings, racketeering etc are criminal activities and their perpetrators, by definition, criminals.

But criminal wasn't my word.

Just to be clear, Im not looking an argument, its just interesting to see different points of view.

Forget about technicalities etc, do you consider them to be criminals? For me I generally don't, although that is not to say that there weren't atrocities carried out in the name of Irish Republicanism

Criminal. Very clear on that

fair enough. You're entitled to your view. I disagree in the main. No doubt there were criminals who used Irish Republicanism to go about their ways. I remember reading on one of the many books written about the time a quote by a lady in Tyrone talking about her sons which stuck with me. She said, yes they were in the IRA, but they weren't bad boys. If they were bad boys I wouldn't have let them back in the house. Ordinary people caught up in extraordinary times is how Ive heard it described and I tend to agree

Roll the clock forward - demographic change-> nationalist majority -> majority position abused -> then accepted into a united ireland -> young protestant sees himself as a discriminated against minority -> he joins a paramilitary group-> they plant a bomb in Newry as it's a catholic town -> 10 die including 2 toddlers and a pregnant woman -> not deterred he and his confreres shoot a catholic taxi driver and put a bomb under a gardai car.


I'm not saying any individual step in that chain is going to happen. My point is that should that scenario ever arise I will condemn the criminal and will not consider myself a quisling

I didnít call you a quisling and Iím not gonna argue hypotheticals with you

Of course your not. I can't stop you availing of an easy hiding place
[/]
Youíre  making things, that that Iím all likelihood wonít happen, up to try and prove a point. Iím not gonna argue that with you. I accepted your position on armed resistance republicanism. I just disagree with it. I havenít called to names or been abusive, but donít let that stop you.

Someone else called me a quisling. That wasn't made abundantly clear in my response to you . Sincerest apologies

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2213 on: April 05, 2018, 07:45:47 AM »
Exactly, and all this British this and British that simply reflects that the UK is not a real union but a colony and its master.

And like all other colonies it residents get to vote in elections, sit in the masters parliament and a majority (currently ) want this to continue.

Not quite my understanding of a colony

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2214 on: April 05, 2018, 07:47:56 AM »
The Good Friday Agreement, which we should all be supporting, recognises the sensitivity of flags and symbols in the north. We should all behave accordingly and stop using flags as territorial markers. In a normal country flags are used to unite people, in the north they're used to divide.
Sorry but no it doesn't really, the Union Fleg still flies at all official functions and designated days. NI soccer fly the Ulster Banner and play the Queen. As I have stated previously when you go to a GAA match it is one of the few events that flies the Tricolour and plays the anthem and long may that continue. In the same way the soul Frank McClorey thinks nationalists should just suck it up and stand for the Queen, unioionists should do like wise at GAA matches.

I hate it when one person uses the stupidity of another to justify their own stupidity

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2215 on: April 05, 2018, 07:49:33 AM »
Unionists seem to cherry pick all the time and got worse since that Foster became leader of DUPUDA.
Usual crap - only Protestant unionists can be real victims
Anyone killed by Security forces can't be victims
Security forces should be  exempt from prosecution or investigation
Can't have bilingual road signs like they have in Wales and Scotland
And so on and so forth.....

Where did she say only Protestant unionists can be real victims?

johnnycool

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2216 on: April 05, 2018, 09:04:37 AM »
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

The Cairo gang.

Fairly clear that he orchestrated this.

Completely clear that he had popular support for his overall goal.
It's clear that the democratic process was being frustrated/denied.

But that doesn't mean anything goes. Did he have popular support for a campaign of violence or this act of violence? What options did he have? Did he conform to the rules of war (admittedly pre Geneva convention)?

I don't have the answers to those last bits.

Pre the execution of the 1916 rebels it was clear that the armed movement didn't have much popular support for armed insurrection that is well documented.
The homerule bill was being stifled and whatever in Westminster during WW1 and beyond, but at the same time due to gerrymandered in build unionist majority and abuse of power in the north the nationalist minority there would not have had a whole pile of options either as can be seen by the way the civil rights movements were met on the streets across the north which were by and large peaceful. There was no movement to a common ground by unionists then before the IRA were able to function.

Is there much of a difference in post 1916 Dublin to late 60's, early 70's Belfast or Derry?

So what is the link?

I was sober last Saturday during the day. But I was drunk on Saturday night. Therefore the darkness caused the drunkenness??? No need to look at other factors??

The link is that if people are denied proper democracy and basic civil rights then they will come out fighting if all other avenues are exhausted whether that's the 1916's or the late 1960's.

The Old IRA were good and New IRA were bad  peddled from Dublin was what I was questioning.

You're a busy boy this morning.

Avondhu star

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2217 on: April 05, 2018, 09:20:39 AM »
No use standing on the back of a lorry in West Tyrone roaring about a United Ireland. Show the people that they would be better off in a United Ireland. Show them how the State would be  without excessive taxation. And dont use the old shite comment that the Brits will pay. They wont
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Ty4Sam

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2218 on: April 05, 2018, 09:31:57 AM »
No use standing on the back of a lorry in West Tyrone roaring about a United Ireland. Show the people that they would be better off in a United Ireland. Show them how the State would be  without excessive taxation. And dont use the old shite comment that the Brits will pay. They wont

IMO that is the crux of the matter. Prove to the people that they would be financially better off in a United Ireland and you're onto a winner, even a surprising amount of protestants would be in favour I'd guess.

johnnycool

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2219 on: April 05, 2018, 09:42:40 AM »
No use standing on the back of a lorry in West Tyrone roaring about a United Ireland. Show the people that they would be better off in a United Ireland. Show them how the State would be  without excessive taxation. And dont use the old shite comment that the Brits will pay. They wont

IMO that is the crux of the matter. Prove to the people that they would be financially better off in a United Ireland and you're onto a winner, even a surprising amount of protestants would be in favour I'd guess.

But as I've said on here before it won't be the Shinners that will convince Protestants of that and that it has to be the sitting Government in the South who may have a lot more sway in the coming years depending on what impact Brexit has in the North.

Ironically enough I think the Special Status that the Shinners want will be an economic stimulant for the north and if anything prolong British rule and Arlenes wish to leave the EU in the same manner as the rest of the UK would increase the likelihood of a United Ireland.

Strange times.