Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 110395 times)

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2190 on: March 12, 2018, 09:13:05 AM »
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

How does it feel to bask in the freedom won for you by the IRA? They didn't win that freedom by being choirboys. And the IRA who fought in the occupied six counties of our country weren't choirboys either. Hypocrisy of blue shirts like you makes me want to puke!

What makes me a blue shirt?

Post your evidence that the freedoms that I enjoy were won for me by the IRA? Don't just assert it - show the cause and effect relationship. Killing people is too serious for lazy assumptions

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2191 on: March 12, 2018, 09:17:23 AM »
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

Show me the popular support for the IRA during the troubles?

What were the results of elections the NAZI's were running in France?

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2192 on: March 12, 2018, 09:19:23 AM »
Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

Well lots of people will use economics as part of their reasoning. You might as well start to prepare yourself for that now, because it isn't going to change. Maybe calling them names will make you feel better and so very grown up. Not sure it win any votes though

If I was to drag some young fella into a side street and give him a beating around the knees and ankles would you that behaviour to display the characteristics of say bullying or thuggery?

So just a criminal then?

Well he certainly was a criminal.

I called him a bully, a thug and a renegade. He certainly was all those things.

If you want to drag me into a debate on the hunger strike then plough on. My views won't surprise you. An horrific way to die. An horrific way to let someone die. Little credit to be attributed to any side.

would you consider every IRA/INLA member a criminal?

The easy way out of that one is to say that membership of a proscribed organisation is a criminal activity

To engage in what I think you are getting at then yes I absolutely consider that shootings, bombings, punishment beatings, racketeering etc are criminal activities and their perpetrators, by definition, criminals.

But criminal wasn't my word.

Just to be clear, Im not looking an argument, its just interesting to see different points of view.

Forget about technicalities etc, do you consider them to be criminals? For me I generally don't, although that is not to say that there weren't atrocities carried out in the name of Irish Republicanism

Criminal. Very clear on that

fair enough. You're entitled to your view. I disagree in the main. No doubt there were criminals who used Irish Republicanism to go about their ways. I remember reading on one of the many books written about the time a quote by a lady in Tyrone talking about her sons which stuck with me. She said, yes they were in the IRA, but they weren't bad boys. If they were bad boys I wouldn't have let them back in the house. Ordinary people caught up in extraordinary times is how Ive heard it described and I tend to agree

Roll the clock forward - demographic change-> nationalist majority -> majority position abused -> then accepted into a united ireland -> young protestant sees himself as a discriminated against minority -> he joins a paramilitary group-> they plant a bomb in Newry as it's a catholic town -> 10 die including 2 toddlers and a pregnant woman -> not deterred he and his confreres shoot a catholic taxi driver and put a bomb under a gardai car.


I'm not saying any individual step in that chain is going to happen. My point is that should that scenario ever arise I will condemn the criminal and will not consider myself a quisling

I didnít call you a quisling and Iím not gonna argue hypotheticals with you

Of course your not. I can't stop you availing of an easy hiding place


smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2193 on: March 12, 2018, 09:22:48 AM »
Interesting posts , how some are so naive is astounding.  Without militant republicanism this country would never of progressed to firstly the 26 and then the GFA which now has a good chance of eventually leading to the unification of Ireland, free of all brit interference.  Great times ahead , everyone will have a part to play to make the transition a successful one , outstretching the arms to our fellow Irish brothers and sisters from the PUL  community and persuading them a united Ireland will be peaceful, equal and prosperous.


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jesus that gave me a laugh. Go down to East Belfast, Bushmills, Kesh or Craigavon and go door to door peddling that horseshit.

Out of interest how would you propose to interact with those people, inside a united ireland or inside a Northern Ireland with a nationalist majority in stormont?

general_lee

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2194 on: March 12, 2018, 11:02:58 AM »
Interesting posts , how some are so naive is astounding.  Without militant republicanism this country would never of progressed to firstly the 26 and then the GFA which now has a good chance of eventually leading to the unification of Ireland, free of all brit interference.  Great times ahead , everyone will have a part to play to make the transition a successful one , outstretching the arms to our fellow Irish brothers and sisters from the PUL  community and persuading them a united Ireland will be peaceful, equal and prosperous.


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jesus that gave me a laugh. Go down to East Belfast, Bushmills, Kesh or Craigavon and go door to door peddling that horseshit.
Portadown maybe? A lot of craigavon is fairly republican

johnnycool

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2195 on: March 12, 2018, 11:31:20 AM »
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

The Cairo gang.

Fairly clear that he orchestrated this.

Completely clear that he had popular support for his overall goal.
It's clear that the democratic process was being frustrated/denied.

But that doesn't mean anything goes. Did he have popular support for a campaign of violence or this act of violence? What options did he have? Did he conform to the rules of war (admittedly pre Geneva convention)?

I don't have the answers to those last bits.

Pre the execution of the 1916 rebels it was clear that the armed movement didn't have much popular support for armed insurrection that is well documented.
The homerule bill was being stifled and whatever in Westminster during WW1 and beyond, but at the same time due to gerrymandered in build unionist majority and abuse of power in the north the nationalist minority there would not have had a whole pile of options either as can be seen by the way the civil rights movements were met on the streets across the north which were by and large peaceful. There was no movement to a common ground by unionists then before the IRA were able to function.

Is there much of a difference in post 1916 Dublin to late 60's, early 70's Belfast or Derry?

Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2196 on: March 12, 2018, 12:44:48 PM »
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

The Cairo gang.

Fairly clear that he orchestrated this.

Completely clear that he had popular support for his overall goal.
It's clear that the democratic process was being frustrated/denied.

But that doesn't mean anything goes. Did he have popular support for a campaign of violence or this act of violence? What options did he have? Did he conform to the rules of war (admittedly pre Geneva convention)?

I don't have the answers to those last bits.

Pre the execution of the 1916 rebels it was clear that the armed movement didn't have much popular support for armed insurrection that is well documented.
The homerule bill was being stifled and whatever in Westminster during WW1 and beyond, but at the same time due to gerrymandered in build unionist majority and abuse of power in the north the nationalist minority there would not have had a whole pile of options either as can be seen by the way the civil rights movements were met on the streets across the north which were by and large peaceful. There was no movement to a common ground by unionists then before the IRA were able to function.

Is there much of a difference in post 1916 Dublin to late 60's, early 70's Belfast or Derry?

Very little.  But it puts the professional hand wringing brigade from the 26 in a bit of a tough spot so it doesn't get much airtime on here.

Therealdonald

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2197 on: March 12, 2018, 03:11:49 PM »
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

Show me the popular support for the IRA during the troubles?

What were the results of elections the NAZI's were running in France?

So there wasn't 100 thousand people at Bobby Sands funeral? Would that qualify as popular support?

trileacman

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2198 on: March 12, 2018, 09:30:36 PM »
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

Show me the popular support for the IRA during the troubles?

What were the results of elections the NAZI's were running in France?

So there wasn't 100 thousand people at Bobby Sands funeral? Would that qualify as popular support?

Bobby Sands become a nationalist hero because of his act of civil disobedience not his violent actions. How many went to the funerals of Joe Cahill, Seamus Twomney and Brendan Hughes?
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Therealdonald

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2199 on: March 12, 2018, 10:37:55 PM »
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

Show me the popular support for the IRA during the troubles?

What were the results of elections the NAZI's were running in France?

So there wasn't 100 thousand people at Bobby Sands funeral? Would that qualify as popular support?

Bobby Sands become a nationalist hero because of his act of civil disobedience not his violent actions. How many went to the funerals of Joe Cahill, Seamus Twomney and Brendan Hughes?

So the thousands in attendance were there because of the hunger strike whilst not supporting what got the men jailed? Don't buy that 1.

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2200 on: March 12, 2018, 11:35:56 PM »
Could ye move on from Funerals please?
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tonto1888

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2201 on: March 13, 2018, 07:49:38 AM »
Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

Well lots of people will use economics as part of their reasoning. You might as well start to prepare yourself for that now, because it isn't going to change. Maybe calling them names will make you feel better and so very grown up. Not sure it win any votes though

If I was to drag some young fella into a side street and give him a beating around the knees and ankles would you that behaviour to display the characteristics of say bullying or thuggery?

So just a criminal then?

Well he certainly was a criminal.

I called him a bully, a thug and a renegade. He certainly was all those things.

If you want to drag me into a debate on the hunger strike then plough on. My views won't surprise you. An horrific way to die. An horrific way to let someone die. Little credit to be attributed to any side.

would you consider every IRA/INLA member a criminal?

The easy way out of that one is to say that membership of a proscribed organisation is a criminal activity

To engage in what I think you are getting at then yes I absolutely consider that shootings, bombings, punishment beatings, racketeering etc are criminal activities and their perpetrators, by definition, criminals.

But criminal wasn't my word.

Just to be clear, Im not looking an argument, its just interesting to see different points of view.

Forget about technicalities etc, do you consider them to be criminals? For me I generally don't, although that is not to say that there weren't atrocities carried out in the name of Irish Republicanism

Criminal. Very clear on that

fair enough. You're entitled to your view. I disagree in the main. No doubt there were criminals who used Irish Republicanism to go about their ways. I remember reading on one of the many books written about the time a quote by a lady in Tyrone talking about her sons which stuck with me. She said, yes they were in the IRA, but they weren't bad boys. If they were bad boys I wouldn't have let them back in the house. Ordinary people caught up in extraordinary times is how Ive heard it described and I tend to agree

Roll the clock forward - demographic change-> nationalist majority -> majority position abused -> then accepted into a united ireland -> young protestant sees himself as a discriminated against minority -> he joins a paramilitary group-> they plant a bomb in Newry as it's a catholic town -> 10 die including 2 toddlers and a pregnant woman -> not deterred he and his confreres shoot a catholic taxi driver and put a bomb under a gardai car.


I'm not saying any individual step in that chain is going to happen. My point is that should that scenario ever arise I will condemn the criminal and will not consider myself a quisling

I didnít call you a quisling and Iím not gonna argue hypotheticals with you

Of course your not. I can't stop you availing of an easy hiding place
[/]
Youíre  making things, that that Iím all likelihood wonít happen, up to try and prove a point. Iím not gonna argue that with you. I accepted your position on armed resistance republicanism. I just disagree with it. I havenít called to names or been abusive, but donít let that stop you.

johnnycool

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Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2203 on: March 14, 2018, 12:55:36 PM »
The name of the State is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" so they are Constitutionally and of course geographically 100% correct.
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armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #2204 on: March 14, 2018, 02:00:42 PM »
Exactly, and all this British this and British that simply reflects that the UK is not a real union but a colony and its master.
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