LSFC - Longford v Dublin 31 May 2015 in Croke Park

[Esmarelda]

The GPA are making a move on this according to Farrell so something might get done in the next three years or so.

I'll be interested to see what the players actually think.

I genuinely don't know what the consensus will be for the perceived weaker counties' players. I mean I'm sure they don't like getting hammered but what their solution(s) will be I don't have a clue.

[Syferus]

Parity in preparation should be the first goal and not changing competition based on a system where one county has a mountain of money and a few others have hills of money to utilize. The GAA needs to properly police itself financially at IC because it went beyond insane years ago now. I'd wager more counties would be able to compete with more regularity if they were on an even playing field financially and there was good oversight provided. To me that will end up being more sustainable for the GAA than simply dumping teams into gettos and expecting it to improve things.

Look that's nonsense. Even the lads arguing for the retention of the provincials have posted up results showing hammering were always there even before money became an issue.

Hardly nonsense. If you don't think Dublin's expensive and well funded senior set-up contributed to what happened last Sunday it's going to be very hard to have a sensible discussion on the topic.

[AZOffaly]

It's got nothing to do with the journey being arduous.
It's about playing against teams you have no rivalry with.
I know lads who would rarely go to Meath games but they would always show up when we play Kildare, for example.
The same applies on their side of the fence, no doubt.
Likewise with Louth.
We need people to go to these games at the end of the day.

If Meath and Tipperary were both the two best teams in Ireland and were playing everyone in both counties would want to be there. It's about the quality of the game too and like I said you can have plenty of neighbouring rivalries outside of provinces. You not telling me if Cavan and Meath met in an All Ireland semi final these lads would be telling you they're going to give it a miss, sure their no Kildare are they? Cork Meath came from nothing but two top teams clashing in close games repeatedly. We don't need neighbours playing we need teams competing against similar opposition.

I agree.
However, if we were the two best teams in Ireland, the chances are we'd meet in the All-Ireland series.
My point is this, if we are currently doing a disservice to the Longfords of this world then the solution is to give them more games against opposition at the same level.
This is where the local rivalry aspect comes to the fore.
I don't see how anyone could argue that two division 4 teams playing each other in Leinster is not preferable to a division 4 team from Leinster playing a division 4 team from Connacht.
To be honest, my gut feeling on the issue is that this has less to do with giving the weaker counties a fair shake and more to do with the ultimate goal, which is to get the top teams playing each other more often and generate increased revenue & exposure in some kind of champions league style structure.
Needless to say, the intervention of Dessie Farrell has done little to convince me otherwise.

I agree this would be the motivation for a lot of people, especially in the media. I don't think Zulu would be coming at it from the revenue side, but I also think that's his ultimate aim from the competition side.

We all want to see the best teams playing each other at the business end of the competition, but I would prefer to allow the weaklings have a crack as well early on, even if they get an odd stuffing, before they depart the stage.

My fear is that, in common with a lot of recent GAA decisions, the money men in Croke Park will take advantage of this situation and come up with a multi tiered competition, not to encourage or facilitate competitive games for all counties, but to enhance the big money days in the top tier, and to have an even sexier 'product' to pitch to Sky or whoever.

Despite what Zulu thinks, my interest is in the games, and I don't want to exclude anyone just because they are poor, either perpetually or just at the moment. I believe that it's harder to have one of those flash in the pan summers that inspire a whole county, if you are having it in the tier 3 competition against Waterford below in Dungarvan. Bollix to that.

[Jinxy]

At the end of the day lads, only one team can win Sam.
We're no different than any other sport in this regard.
However, the Sunderland fan who knows his team will never win a premiership will still celebrate as if they had, provided they beat Newcastle.
Familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds championship football.
I believe we can retain the provincial structure but make it work much better for everyone.

[Zulu]

It's got nothing to do with the journey being arduous.
It's about playing against teams you have no rivalry with.
I know lads who would rarely go to Meath games but they would always show up when we play Kildare, for example.
The same applies on their side of the fence, no doubt.
Likewise with Louth.
We need people to go to these games at the end of the day.

If Meath and Tipperary were both the two best teams in Ireland and were playing everyone in both counties would want to be there. It's about the quality of the game too and like I said you can have plenty of neighbouring rivalries outside of provinces. You not telling me if Cavan and Meath met in an All Ireland semi final these lads would be telling you they're going to give it a miss, sure their no Kildare are they? Cork Meath came from nothing but two top teams clashing in close games repeatedly. We don't need neighbours playing we need teams competing against similar opposition.

I agree.
However, if we were the two best teams in Ireland, the chances are we'd meet in the All-Ireland series.
My point is this, if we are currently doing a disservice to the Longfords of this world then the solution is to give them more games against opposition at the same level.
This is where the local rivalry aspect comes to the fore.
I don't see how anyone could argue that two division 4 teams playing each other in Leinster is not preferable to a division 4 team from Leinster playing a division 4 team from Connacht.
To be honest, my gut feeling on the issue is that this has less to do with giving the weaker counties a fair shake and more to do with the ultimate goal, which is to get the top teams playing each other more often and generate increased revenue & exposure in some kind of champions league style structure.
Needless to say, the intervention of Dessie Farrell has done little to convince me otherwise.

I can only speak for myself. For me, it is definitely about both. I absolutely want to see more Dublin Tyrone, Kerry Mayo, Donegal Cork type games and I want to see them for lots reasons. I want to see them as a fan but I also believe that the interest, money and hype they would generate would help the game in weaker counties. However, I also want to give weaker teams a better more structured season where every player has a realistic chance of winning important games and a pathway to develop as a player and with his team.

The current system means we get few very big games and most weaker counties have little realistic chance of success or progress. Do well in the qualifiers, a la Wicklow? Well once your knocked out it'll be 6 months to your next game and unless you got promotion you'll be right back at square one.

This has nothing to do with Dublin and they shouldn't be allowed muddy the water. The sport has been dominated by a few teams who even then have rarely met in major games and all the while the majority live off a once in a generation win to keep them going.

[Zulu]

Parity in preparation should be the first goal and not changing competition based on a system where one county has a mountain of money and a few others have hills of money to utilize. The GAA needs to properly police itself financially at IC because it went beyond insane years ago now. I'd wager more counties would be able to compete with more regularity if they were on an even playing field financially and there was good oversight provided. To me that will end up being more sustainable for the GAA than simply dumping teams into gettos and expecting it to improve things.

Look that's nonsense. Even the lads arguing for the retention of the provincials have posted up results showing hammering were always there even before money became an issue.

Hardly nonsense. If you don't think Dublin's expensive and well funded senior set-up contributed to what happened last Sunday it's going to be very hard to have a sensible discussion on the topic.

So what was the reason for the Miltown massacre? Were Kerry getting millions in the 1970's? If you think money rather than a population of 1.5 million v a population of 40,000 was the bigger factor then you're right a sensible discussion is beyond you.

[AZOffaly]

At the end of the day lads, only one team can win Sam.
We're no different than any other sport in this regard.
However, the Sunderland fan who knows his team will never win a premiership will still celebrate as if they had, provided they beat Newcastle.
Familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds championship football.

I'm not necessarily with you on this one Jinxy. My attachment to the provincials is based on the fact that they are still the most attainable meaningful success that most (not all) counties can at least aspire to. It's not necessarily because they have to beat Westmeath or Laois to win them. Of course local derbies are special, but maybe a more infrequent local derby in an All Ireland format would be even more special? I mean in fairness if you were in a group of 4, there's a fair chance at least one of them will be near enough to you, especially if you are a Leinster county. In that sample I threw out there Offaly would have played Roscommon, which would be a local derby.

[AZOffaly]

Parity in preparation should be the first goal and not changing competition based on a system where one county has a mountain of money and a few others have hills of money to utilize. The GAA needs to properly police itself financially at IC because it went beyond insane years ago now. I'd wager more counties would be able to compete with more regularity if they were on an even playing field financially and there was good oversight provided. To me that will end up being more sustainable for the GAA than simply dumping teams into gettos and expecting it to improve things.

Look that's nonsense. Even the lads arguing for the retention of the provincials have posted up results showing hammering were always there even before money became an issue.

Hardly nonsense. If you don't think Dublin's expensive and well funded senior set-up contributed to what happened last Sunday it's going to be very hard to have a sensible discussion on the topic.

So what was the reason for the Miltown massacre? Were Kerry getting millions in the 1970's? If you think money rather than a population of 1.5 million v a population of 40,000 was the bigger factor then you're right a sensible discussion is beyond you.

Yeah but Zulu, the money spent wisely helps harness the power of the 1.5 million. That's what the Dubs have done well, and are an example to everyone. Whether you have 1.5 million, or 40,000 you must harness and maximise what you have. Well invested funds help you do that. At the end of the day, you can still only tog out 26.

[Zulu]

Despite what Zulu thinks, my interest is in the games, and I don't want to exclude anyone just because they are poor, either perpetually or just at the moment.

Not true AZ. I know you have the interests of the sport at heart but you're perhaps influenced by your involvement with Tipp who are getting closer to winning a provincial crown. I fully understand that doing so would mean a huge amount to those players and guys like yourself who have put so much into getting them competitive. I know I can be a bit combative on this issue but that is because it needs to be discussed properly. To read my posts you might think I was banned from attending provincial championship matches or something but I just think we nearly have the worst of both worlds. The best dominate them and we miss out on better games, the weak have no chance of winning them and usually get tanked so that just leaves the middle tier, like Roscommon or Tipp who would love to win one but after they did it would reduce in value as they set their sights on an All Ireland. There's definitely a better system.

[Zulu]

Parity in preparation should be the first goal and not changing competition based on a system where one county has a mountain of money and a few others have hills of money to utilize. The GAA needs to properly police itself financially at IC because it went beyond insane years ago now. I'd wager more counties would be able to compete with more regularity if they were on an even playing field financially and there was good oversight provided. To me that will end up being more sustainable for the GAA than simply dumping teams into gettos and expecting it to improve things.

Look that's nonsense. Even the lads arguing for the retention of the provincials have posted up results showing hammering were always there even before money became an issue.

Hardly nonsense. If you don't think Dublin's expensive and well funded senior set-up contributed to what happened last Sunday it's going to be very hard to have a sensible discussion on the topic.

So what was the reason for the Miltown massacre? Were Kerry getting millions in the 1970's? If you think money rather than a population of 1.5 million v a population of 40,000 was the bigger factor then you're right a sensible discussion is beyond you.

Yeah but Zulu, the money spent wisely helps harness the power of the 1.5 million. That's what the Dubs have done well, and are an example to everyone. Whether you have 1.5 million, or 40,000 you must harness and maximise what you have. Well invested funds help you do that. At the end of the day, you can still only tog out 26.

Agree 100% but Dublin's money is not the reason Waterford were hammered by Tipp or Leitrim by Galway. Let's not muddy the waters with side issues.

[AZOffaly]

Which is why I'm open to change, as long as it doesn't exclude anyone, or siphon them off into a secondary who gives a f**k competition at the start of the year.

I would support a 32 county, 8x4 group structure, with the top 2 in each group going forward, and the bottom two finishing for the summer. Base the groups on the league positions every year, and there's your link between league and championship.

[Jinxy]

At the end of the day lads, only one team can win Sam.
We're no different than any other sport in this regard.
However, the Sunderland fan who knows his team will never win a premiership will still celebrate as if they had, provided they beat Newcastle.
Familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds championship football.

I'm not necessarily with you on this one Jinxy. My attachment to the provincials is based on the fact that they are still the most attainable meaningful success that most (not all) counties can at least aspire to. It's not necessarily because they have to beat Westmeath or Laois to win them. Of course local derbies are special, but maybe a more infrequent local derby in an All Ireland format would be even more special? I mean in fairness if you were in a group of 4, there's a fair chance at least one of them will be near enough to you, especially if you are a Leinster county. In that sample I threw out there Offaly would have played Roscommon, which would be a local derby.

The qualifiers regularly throw up novelty cross-province local derbies.
I'm specifically talking about a scenario whereby if you are a weaker county in Leinster in a preliminary mini-league, the geographical proximity of the teams generates a buzz, i.e. "We (Offaly) need Wicklow to do us a favour against Carlow next week".
It's about teams getting more games.
Games they can win, against teams they really want to beat.

[AZOffaly]

Parity in preparation should be the first goal and not changing competition based on a system where one county has a mountain of money and a few others have hills of money to utilize. The GAA needs to properly police itself financially at IC because it went beyond insane years ago now. I'd wager more counties would be able to compete with more regularity if they were on an even playing field financially and there was good oversight provided. To me that will end up being more sustainable for the GAA than simply dumping teams into gettos and expecting it to improve things.

Look that's nonsense. Even the lads arguing for the retention of the provincials have posted up results showing hammering were always there even before money became an issue.

Hardly nonsense. If you don't think Dublin's expensive and well funded senior set-up contributed to what happened last Sunday it's going to be very hard to have a sensible discussion on the topic.

So what was the reason for the Miltown massacre? Were Kerry getting millions in the 1970's? If you think money rather than a population of 1.5 million v a population of 40,000 was the bigger factor then you're right a sensible discussion is beyond you.

Yeah but Zulu, the money spent wisely helps harness the power of the 1.5 million. That's what the Dubs have done well, and are an example to everyone. Whether you have 1.5 million, or 40,000 you must harness and maximise what you have. Well invested funds help you do that. At the end of the day, you can still only tog out 26.

Agree 100% but Dublin's money is not the reason Waterford were hammered by Tipp or Leitrim by Galway. Let's not muddy the waters with side issues.

True, but let's not pretend it's not a factor in the general malaise either. Maybe not for yourself, but I guarantee if Dublin hadn't won the last 4 Leinsters, and hockeyed teams like Meath and Kildare in the process, this discussion would not be on the table in general.

[AZOffaly]

At the end of the day lads, only one team can win Sam.
We're no different than any other sport in this regard.
However, the Sunderland fan who knows his team will never win a premiership will still celebrate as if they had, provided they beat Newcastle.
Familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds championship football.

I'm not necessarily with you on this one Jinxy. My attachment to the provincials is based on the fact that they are still the most attainable meaningful success that most (not all) counties can at least aspire to. It's not necessarily because they have to beat Westmeath or Laois to win them. Of course local derbies are special, but maybe a more infrequent local derby in an All Ireland format would be even more special? I mean in fairness if you were in a group of 4, there's a fair chance at least one of them will be near enough to you, especially if you are a Leinster county. In that sample I threw out there Offaly would have played Roscommon, which would be a local derby.

The qualifiers regularly throw up novelty cross-province local derbies.
I'm specifically talking about a scenario whereby if you are a weaker county in Leinster in a preliminary mini-league, the geographical proximity of the teams generates a buzz, i.e. "We (Offaly) need Wicklow to do us a favour against Carlow next week".
It's about teams getting more games.
Games they can win, against teams they really want to beat.

The qualifiers are shite.  I said I'm not necessarily against your system if the provincials are to be retained. However if we are going to change, maybe we change fundamentally.

[Syferus]

Parity in preparation should be the first goal and not changing competition based on a system where one county has a mountain of money and a few others have hills of money to utilize. The GAA needs to properly police itself financially at IC because it went beyond insane years ago now. I'd wager more counties would be able to compete with more regularity if they were on an even playing field financially and there was good oversight provided. To me that will end up being more sustainable for the GAA than simply dumping teams into gettos and expecting it to improve things.

Look that's nonsense. Even the lads arguing for the retention of the provincials have posted up results showing hammering were always there even before money became an issue.

Hardly nonsense. If you don't think Dublin's expensive and well funded senior set-up contributed to what happened last Sunday it's going to be very hard to have a sensible discussion on the topic.

So what was the reason for the Miltown massacre? Were Kerry getting millions in the 1970's? If you think money rather than a population of 1.5 million v a population of 40,000 was the bigger factor then you're right a sensible discussion is beyond you.

Yeah but Zulu, the money spent wisely helps harness the power of the 1.5 million. That's what the Dubs have done well, and are an example to everyone. Whether you have 1.5 million, or 40,000 you must harness and maximise what you have. Well invested funds help you do that. At the end of the day, you can still only tog out 26.

Agree 100% but Dublin's money is not the reason Waterford were hammered by Tipp or Leitrim by Galway. Let's not muddy the waters with side issues.

The same case can be made for Galway compared to Leitrim, it is undoubtedly a contributing factor. You don't see AI winners operating on shoestring budgets.

Money matters however you cut it.