Donegal v Tyrone Sun 17 May

[omaghjoe]

Lads - take a run through the posts and do a count on the number of times you read "If this is true..."

work out the rest from there

Take a look through the posts and shake your head in shame at your posts above .

You guys run around on the moral high ground until your noses bleed but I hate to disappoint you on this:
- we don't coach this shit in Tyrone
- we don't condone it in Tyrone
- every sport is at their worst
- every county is at their worst

Shake my head in shame at what? at the fact that you are the only perfect GAA fan on this site? That Tyrone are the ONLY county?

FOR f**k SAKE GROW UP - i have yet to see a Tyrone or Ulster GAA Fan celebrate the news headlines this last few days, but if you are telling me that I should believe everything that i read in a newspaper or what i hear on the radio, then I'm not prepared to debate f**k all with someone like you

Minors , u21s and seniors and lower. But it's not organised. My arse it isn't. Now it's systemic in the game especially in Ulster . What's next . How much lower can the game sink

Indianna, how exactly do you think this is 'organised'?
You think we run 'mouthing' sessions up in garvaghy.or therea re courses on sledgeing and opponent?
Serious question,do you really think that is is actually coached??   

The lad evidently hasn't a clue...its coached at home first, then mass, in the young-fianna, on manoeuvres, THEN primary school, grammar and then the new academy set up

It is systemically engrained in Tyrones football culture. The problem as we saw last Sunday is that it has spread to the rest of Ulster and probably beyond. A low point for the game.

Systematically engrained...can you go about deeper into this, without repeating Joe Brolly? Explain what that might actually look like...ion real life?

Trust me - you really shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers

I wouldn't agree with all of what Indiana says, disagree with a lot actually, and indeed will have a wee smile when Dublin are put to the sword in this years championship, but he is correct when he says "It is systemically ingrained in Tyrone's football culture", has been all through the Harte regime.

Despite the fact that all the evidence points to the contary

what are you blathering about? The evidence I use is my own set of eyeballs

Tell us more about these systems that you have seen that ingrain it into Tyrone football culture.
Have you seen spreadsheets and flowcharts of these systems?

Joe i wouldn't even humour this lad....

very good. Very few have talked as much clap as yourself on this subject

Me or Dermy?

Anyway back to this evidence you have seen...

Speaking of evidence, you were referring earlier to "concrete evidence" that it is coached in Donegal...?

Kevin Cassidy's book its all in there

Nothing in there about coaching it. At worst you could say McGuinness gave it tacit approval, like many other managers. According to the book, McGuinness was approached about it, and went away and came up with the wrist band stuff.

That and getting the team to say "not today" when Tyrone started with THEIR talking in that 2011 fame.

Of course, the GAA should address it so that managers CAN'T give it tacit approval.

Yes Lacey and Murphy approached him about being nastier.  They also watched a youtube clip of some American footballer "trash talking" and they were going to adopt a similar approach to their game.

If that's not coaching it then I dunno what is.

[J70]

Lads - take a run through the posts and do a count on the number of times you read "If this is true..."

work out the rest from there

Take a look through the posts and shake your head in shame at your posts above .

You guys run around on the moral high ground until your noses bleed but I hate to disappoint you on this:
- we don't coach this shit in Tyrone
- we don't condone it in Tyrone
- every sport is at their worst
- every county is at their worst

Shake my head in shame at what? at the fact that you are the only perfect GAA fan on this site? That Tyrone are the ONLY county?

FOR f**k SAKE GROW UP - i have yet to see a Tyrone or Ulster GAA Fan celebrate the news headlines this last few days, but if you are telling me that I should believe everything that i read in a newspaper or what i hear on the radio, then I'm not prepared to debate f**k all with someone like you

Minors , u21s and seniors and lower. But it's not organised. My arse it isn't. Now it's systemic in the game especially in Ulster . What's next . How much lower can the game sink

Indianna, how exactly do you think this is 'organised'?
You think we run 'mouthing' sessions up in garvaghy.or therea re courses on sledgeing and opponent?
Serious question,do you really think that is is actually coached??   

The lad evidently hasn't a clue...its coached at home first, then mass, in the young-fianna, on manoeuvres, THEN primary school, grammar and then the new academy set up

It is systemically engrained in Tyrones football culture. The problem as we saw last Sunday is that it has spread to the rest of Ulster and probably beyond. A low point for the game.

Systematically engrained...can you go about deeper into this, without repeating Joe Brolly? Explain what that might actually look like...ion real life?

Trust me - you really shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers

I wouldn't agree with all of what Indiana says, disagree with a lot actually, and indeed will have a wee smile when Dublin are put to the sword in this years championship, but he is correct when he says "It is systemically ingrained in Tyrone's football culture", has been all through the Harte regime.

Despite the fact that all the evidence points to the contary

what are you blathering about? The evidence I use is my own set of eyeballs

Tell us more about these systems that you have seen that ingrain it into Tyrone football culture.
Have you seen spreadsheets and flowcharts of these systems?

Joe i wouldn't even humour this lad....

very good. Very few have talked as much clap as yourself on this subject

Me or Dermy?

Anyway back to this evidence you have seen...

Speaking of evidence, you were referring earlier to "concrete evidence" that it is coached in Donegal...?

Kevin Cassidy's book its all in there

Nothing in there about coaching it. At worst you could say McGuinness gave it tacit approval, like many other managers. According to the book, McGuinness was approached about it, and went away and came up with the wrist band stuff.

That and getting the team to say "not today" when Tyrone started with THEIR talking in that 2011 fame.

Of course, the GAA should address it so that managers CAN'T give it tacit approval.

Yes Lacey and Murphy approached him about being nastier.  They also watched a youtube clip of some American footballer "trash talking" and they were going to adopt a similar approach to their game.

If that's not coaching it then I dunno what is.

The players had been getting it for years from opponents and took it into their own hands to meet like with like. Cassidy claimed he started it as he thought a lot of the team was too nice. Nothing in there about McGuinness introducing it or coaching it. Obviously he knew about it and didn't do much to discourage it, just like Mickey Harte.

[omaghjoe]

Lads - take a run through the posts and do a count on the number of times you read "If this is true..."

work out the rest from there

Take a look through the posts and shake your head in shame at your posts above .

You guys run around on the moral high ground until your noses bleed but I hate to disappoint you on this:
- we don't coach this shit in Tyrone
- we don't condone it in Tyrone
- every sport is at their worst
- every county is at their worst

Shake my head in shame at what? at the fact that you are the only perfect GAA fan on this site? That Tyrone are the ONLY county?

FOR f**k SAKE GROW UP - i have yet to see a Tyrone or Ulster GAA Fan celebrate the news headlines this last few days, but if you are telling me that I should believe everything that i read in a newspaper or what i hear on the radio, then I'm not prepared to debate f**k all with someone like you

Minors , u21s and seniors and lower. But it's not organised. My arse it isn't. Now it's systemic in the game especially in Ulster . What's next . How much lower can the game sink

Indianna, how exactly do you think this is 'organised'?
You think we run 'mouthing' sessions up in garvaghy.or therea re courses on sledgeing and opponent?
Serious question,do you really think that is is actually coached??   

The lad evidently hasn't a clue...its coached at home first, then mass, in the young-fianna, on manoeuvres, THEN primary school, grammar and then the new academy set up

It is systemically engrained in Tyrones football culture. The problem as we saw last Sunday is that it has spread to the rest of Ulster and probably beyond. A low point for the game.

Systematically engrained...can you go about deeper into this, without repeating Joe Brolly? Explain what that might actually look like...ion real life?

Trust me - you really shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers

I wouldn't agree with all of what Indiana says, disagree with a lot actually, and indeed will have a wee smile when Dublin are put to the sword in this years championship, but he is correct when he says "It is systemically ingrained in Tyrone's football culture", has been all through the Harte regime.

Despite the fact that all the evidence points to the contary

what are you blathering about? The evidence I use is my own set of eyeballs

Tell us more about these systems that you have seen that ingrain it into Tyrone football culture.
Have you seen spreadsheets and flowcharts of these systems?

Joe i wouldn't even humour this lad....

very good. Very few have talked as much clap as yourself on this subject

Me or Dermy?

Anyway back to this evidence you have seen...

Speaking of evidence, you were referring earlier to "concrete evidence" that it is coached in Donegal...?

Kevin Cassidy's book its all in there

Nothing in there about coaching it. At worst you could say McGuinness gave it tacit approval, like many other managers. According to the book, McGuinness was approached about it, and went away and came up with the wrist band stuff.

That and getting the team to say "not today" when Tyrone started with THEIR talking in that 2011 fame.

Of course, the GAA should address it so that managers CAN'T give it tacit approval.

Yes Lacey and Murphy approached him about being nastier.  They also watched a youtube clip of some American footballer "trash talking" and they were going to adopt a similar approach to their game.

If that's not coaching it then I dunno what is.

The players had been getting it for years from opponents and took it into their own hands to meet like with like. Cassidy claimed he started it as he thought a lot of the team was too nice. Nothing in there about McGuinness introducing it or coaching it. Obviously he knew about it and didn't do much to discourage it, just like Mickey Harte.

Right or Wrong, Reasons for doing I'm not trying to establish in this particular discussion, what I am trying to establish is concrete evidence of whether or not it is coached

We have a first hand account from the Donegal camp that they were to become nastier on the pitch and were showed a video of a guy sledging at their training. That is coaching it, that's not turning a blind eye to it that's coaching it! I wouldn't call it systemic coaching (like Tyrone are alleged to do) but it is coaching none the less.

On the other hand you said that Mickey Harte turned a blind eye to it, there is no evidence of that. The only evidence is when he was asked about it, he denied it along with the denials of numerous players, so the evidence is to the contrary regarding Tyrone

On a side note the perception that Donegal were a soft touch was not true, the perception that they were too found of the pints tho.... well that was!

[J70]

So you are saying Harte never knew what the likes of McMenamin and boys like him were doing for all those years? Because if he did, and took no action to stop, then that is turning a blind eye to it.

And in Donegal's case it was the players showing each other the Dawkins video. Even in Donegal they have smart phones, you know! Coaching it would be McGuinness and staff talking to players about it, encouraging players to engage in it. There is evidence of that.

Regardless,  McGuinness,  just like Harte, allowed it to go on.

[J70]

Several players from Armagh have spoken about their regarding the Donegal team of that era as soft touches.

[DuffleKing]

Several players from Armagh have spoken about their regarding the Donegal team of that era as soft touches.

I've heard that said several times but always thought it was a figment of the collective Donegal imagination?

[Fuzzman]

Posting at 2am on a Sat night is always dangerous.
I've often read others posts so late with drink consumed and thought Christ you'll regret that in the morning.
Anyway, I had a good chat with a 75+ yr old today about the anti Tyrone feeling and Ulster sledging talk.
My conclusions are.
If it wasn't for Mickey Harte's stubbornness I'm not sure if we would be still waiting on No 1 Sam.

Sledging is rife in most counties for years my aul pal tells me but here's my VERY controversial opinion.

I HATE booing free taking. Even the worst of the worst English Milwall fans show respect for penalties.
Some of our players overstepped the line several times in Sledging terms in the highly competitive Ulster cauldron.
Mr not so clean shaven Harte never spoke out and made a stand to several players over the years. He might not encourage it nor help get phone numbers but if he really wanted to end it he could. Anyone spotted yapping is hauled off.
The fact remains that managers are under major pressure and what is good or bad for the game means f**k all to them, unlike Brolly, Spillane and puppets.

Look at the last 10 different winners of Sam.
How many have totally played it fair and have played it clean open ball. Even this superb Dubs team had to resort to negativity to get over the he line.

Compare Barcelona to Real Madrid.
Boa Noite!!!!
Meath, we in Tyrone salute you.

[omaghjoe]

So you are saying Harte never knew what the likes of McMenamin and boys like him were doing for all those years? Because if he did, and took no action to stop, then that is turning a blind eye to it.

And in Donegal's case it was the players showing each other the Dawkins video. Even in Donegal they have smart phones, you know! Coaching it would be McGuinness and staff talking to players about it, encouraging players to engage in it. There is evidence of that.

Regardless,  McGuinness,  just like Harte, allowed it to go on.

When talking about turning a blind eye to it I was referring to the coaching of sledging not the actual sledging itself. Harte obviously tolerated the actual sledging at some level. I used to get a right rollicking from underage managers for slabbering but they never took me off so I suppose you could say they tolerated as well. I imagine this is what the Harte Ricey scenario was regarding it.
But regarding turning a blind eye to the coaching of sledging there is no evidence of that whatsoever, and there is also no evidence of coaching sledging in the Tyrone setup under Harte.

With the McGuinnes Donegal setup on the other hand there is evidence that it was preplanned and coached. A video of a man sledging was watched at training as an example of to how to be nasty on the field. Right or wrong whatever, that's coaching sledging.

[Fuzzman]

Donegal took Tyrone's swarm defending on 03 to a whole new level. Back in Spillane's playing days you would have often saw him and other half forwards back helping their defence like Dooher & co.
Donegal turned that up a massive notch and applied soccer style tactics where weaker teams park the bus and hope to frustrate their opponents. It works but is horrible to watch.
If that is true about them watching a sledging video to bring that "tactic" on to a new level then that really is worrying.
My point is sledging has already gone too far in my eyes where its now a big part of the game. As Dara O Sé says these Ulster players know each other too well and the local rivalry is too intense.
Every year we play back door games, you can visibly see the more relaxed style of football.
The nervous intensity of the 03 AI final from both players and fans was unreal. Two massive rival neighbour teams with so much at stake produced a high tension game.
If Tyrone/Monaghan/Armagh played Donegal played in an AI final this year it would need to be after the 9 pm watershed.
Say what you want but Donegal have come from nowhere, thought up new tactics and have dominated Ulster football for the last 5 years. Fact.
They have learnt those extra wee things it takes to win an AI that many counties just don't get.
Once you cross that line its hard to turn back.
I wonder will Monaghan be the next new name on the list to win Sam.

[Redhand Santa]

Local derbies and tension are a huge part of the gaa and add to championship games - that's why more people go to watch them. We all enjoy a bit of an edge and confrontations. It's always been in the games and if taken away I think the game would be worse of for it. We're in danger of turning our game soft with all this over the top in depth analysis and fake moral outrage from the media. The half time incident last week was very little - a bit of pushing and shoving. 20 years ago that would have been a full blown scrap. That's why its funny to see the rte analysts look so disturbed by it and trying to make out its something new in the game.

Similary Justy McMahon did a marking job on Murphy - it was a one on one battle that the game has been built on. I remember Canavan having great duals with McKeever from Derry etc and everyone loved those battles. Murphy is well capable of looking after himself and regularly throws his weight about. Many times in the past we've seen defenders taking it to far with late hits or hitting of the ball, what McMahon done wasn't that bad at all. RTE went through the video to try and criticise McMahon for going over the top and couldn't find one incident.

As for the talking its always been part of the game and as long as not taken to far who really cares. Like telling someone they're crap after missing a free isn't doing much harm. There is a line which should never be crossed for example what was alleged in the minor game or mention someone sick etc. And everyone needs to take a look at themself in this area. Anything else and the players are well capable of laughing it of or giving a bit back.

I think people need to have a think what they want out of the game - do we want it totally diluted with little physical content and the local passion taken away? I certainly don't and in my opinion we'd have a much worse game if that was the way. I'd love a rematch with Donegal later in the summer in Croke Park and another full blown local derby (if nothing else it'll mean we've had a good run in the qualifiers) and a chance to get another go at the f--kers.

[J70]

So you are saying Harte never knew what the likes of McMenamin and boys like him were doing for all those years? Because if he did, and took no action to stop, then that is turning a blind eye to it.

And in Donegal's case it was the players showing each other the Dawkins video. Even in Donegal they have smart phones, you know! Coaching it would be McGuinness and staff talking to players about it, encouraging players to engage in it. There is evidence of that.

Regardless,  McGuinness,  just like Harte, allowed it to go on.

When talking about turning a blind eye to it I was referring to the coaching of sledging not the actual sledging itself. Harte obviously tolerated the actual sledging at some level. I used to get a right rollicking from underage managers for slabbering but they never took me off so I suppose you could say they tolerated as well. I imagine this is what the Harte Ricey scenario was regarding it.
But regarding turning a blind eye to the coaching of sledging there is no evidence of that whatsoever, and there is also no evidence of coaching sledging in the Tyrone setup under Harte.

With the McGuinnes Donegal setup on the other hand there is evidence that it was preplanned and coached. A video of a man sledging was watched at training as an example of to how to be nasty on the field. Right or wrong whatever, that's coaching sledging.

So if the players had looked at the video in the pub and shared it by email it would NOT be "coaching"? The fact that they looked at it at training is what matters?

The fact is they approached McGuinness about it and there is no evidence that he or the coaching staff presented the idea to the squad or encouraged it.

Unless there is evidence to the contrary?

Besides,  what difference would it make anyway. Watching a video or talking to/observing the on - field conduct of your colleagues and opponents, it's not as if Cassidy was introducing a tactic none of these players had previously seen. You think Colm McFadden decked Brian Dooher in 2007 for no reason? Or various other players on the team who, at various times over the years had reacted to sledging and got the line? They'd seen the effectiveness of the practice over the previous decade.

[Wildweasel74]

Games over lads, move on

[omaghjoe]

So you are saying Harte never knew what the likes of McMenamin and boys like him were doing for all those years? Because if he did, and took no action to stop, then that is turning a blind eye to it.

And in Donegal's case it was the players showing each other the Dawkins video. Even in Donegal they have smart phones, you know! Coaching it would be McGuinness and staff talking to players about it, encouraging players to engage in it. There is evidence of that.

Regardless,  McGuinness,  just like Harte, allowed it to go on.

When talking about turning a blind eye to it I was referring to the coaching of sledging not the actual sledging itself. Harte obviously tolerated the actual sledging at some level. I used to get a right rollicking from underage managers for slabbering but they never took me off so I suppose you could say they tolerated as well. I imagine this is what the Harte Ricey scenario was regarding it.
But regarding turning a blind eye to the coaching of sledging there is no evidence of that whatsoever, and there is also no evidence of coaching sledging in the Tyrone setup under Harte.

With the McGuinnes Donegal setup on the other hand there is evidence that it was preplanned and coached. A video of a man sledging was watched at training as an example of to how to be nasty on the field. Right or wrong whatever, that's coaching sledging.

So if the players had looked at the video in the pub and shared it by email it would NOT be "coaching"? The fact that they looked at it at training is what matters?

The fact is they approached McGuinness about it and there is no evidence that he or the coaching staff presented the idea to the squad or encouraged it.

Unless there is evidence to the contrary?

Besides,  what difference would it make anyway. Watching a video or talking to/observing the on - field conduct of your colleagues and opponents, it's not as if Cassidy was introducing a tactic none of these players had previously seen. You think Colm McFadden decked Brian Dooher in 2007 for no reason? Or various other players on the team who, at various times over the years had reacted to sledging and got the line? They'd seen the effectiveness of the practice over the previous decade.

What really matters is that the players were gathered together as a collective unit to be coached and were shown a video as to how to go about sledging. 

What difference does it make that it was coached and preplanned? I don't know, that's another discussion. What we are discussing now is evidence of it being preplanned and coached, and Cassidy's book provides us with that evidence.

[J70]

Gathered to discuss.  Preplanned among players, yes. No evidence coaches or management were involved, however. The only word about coaching regarding mouthing in the book is about counteracting the expected Tyrone sledging!

[omaghjoe]

Gathered to discuss.  Preplanned among players, yes. No evidence coaches or management were involved, however. The only word about coaching regarding mouthing in the book is about counteracting the expected Tyrone sledging!

Gathered to discuss, prelanned and demonstrated(which u left out). That's a pretty good definition of coaching.