The State Of Gaelic Football

[Teo Lurley]

This time last year we were discussing how the black card had changed the game with record high scoring games etc. Smug black carders like Joe Brolly were telling us that they told us so and the game is some much better. What's the solution now? Keep changing the rules until it no longer resembles Gaelic football? (Although to be fair, some games recently don't resemble gaelic football)

By the way, you don't follow your county or club for entertainment, you follow your club and county because it hurts, because it is torture, because it is where you are from, because they are your mates out there, because it is painful to watch them most of the time whether they are playing defensively or not, because you like to moan about what they are doing wrong and how you could do better, because you hope that some day on maybe that one rare occasion they manage to pull off a result that makes you feel like you are top of the world - you soon forget that it was a shite game. So I don't buy into the entertainment putting people off - its the painfulness of it all that is the attraction. Bring on more turgid games - its the purgatory that we love. I shall be strapping the barbed wire to myself under my Tyrone top for the visit to Ballybofey in the a few weeks, bring it on!

Well said young fella.

[BennyHarp]

Benny, using the black card as a stick to beat those who are proposing rule changes is unfair. The Black card was brought into deal with cynical fouling, not legal, defensive, strategies. The performance of the black card is debatable, but it's a separate debate in my view.

I remember posting at the time that the black card would lead to even more defensive play. Teams would retreat further and fill up spaces rather than tackle in groups in fear of making a cynical tackle. It has made it even more attractive to run from deep as the player (quite rightly) cant be checked in his run so the emphasis is push back, fill up the space, force a turn over and attack by running from deep. The running from deep bit hasn't really been mastered yet but it is being worked on. These are tactics that have been developed as a direct response to the black card. Yes, teams were defensive before but not to the level we are seeing.

What we are seeing now is managers after having a year to consider the implications of the changes and come up with a way to utilise a rule change to their advantage. People are talking about clamping down on fouls, Tyrone played Dublin in this defensive style a few weeks ago and only conceded 5 fouls the whole game. Teams aren't even tackling now they are filling up spaces - the game has changed. This is why it is relevant to bring up the black card when discussing new rules. Managers will look at rules and exploit them. We need to be very careful what rules we change. Someone mentioned before about clamping down on current rules and I agree, with the main emphasis on being the 4 steps in possession - for me, that changes a lot because it means that a legal tackle is much more likely and it will stop the runs from deep and holding onto possession and may force players to move the ball a bit quicker.

[JoG2]

I can appreciate both sides of this debate, though if you look through my post history, I'm all on for more open football (like the vast majority) and very much a critic of the blanket. In an ideal world, we, both as spectators and players / managers would love open, hard hitting, high scoring games week in week out. County football should be the pinnacle as regards the spectacle. At the minute, for a lot of people its far from it. Indeed many would say that intermediate club football is currently the best to watch as its it fairly open and hasn't yet been infested by the blanket. Senior club matches mirroring county defensive setups can be particularly sore on the eyes, as the players don't have the speed and athleticism to counter at speed, rendering many of these matches as pretty much unwatchable.

In the race for Sam, 2 teams are well ahead of the chasing pack. Kerry and Dublin. Kerry are, well just Kerry. Dublin have the population, the money, a huge backroom team, coaches, pre prepared meals etc etc etc and a massive squad of professionally conditioned athletes who play all their championship matches at home. Do we expect the chasing pack who do not have the same advantages as Dublin to go toe to toe? Only its not toe to toe as Dublin have all these advantages. The playing field is far from even. Dublin folk's sense of entitlement, and sheer arrogance on this board  seems to think these counties should, and, particularly in the Leinster championship (which is pretty much a non-event at the minute...no disrespect to the other 11 counties) be on the receiving end of a humiliating tanking. Alot of these contests are not a million miles away from professional v amateur. The booing of the Derry team on Sat evening was a disgrace imo. You've a squad of players making huge sacrifices for little reward (like most players / counties). Derry have not won a provisional championship in 17 years. You've a county known for their, often naive open football, setting up defensively (for the 1st time I might add) to avoid a hammering on the eve of the Ulster championship throwing in. The Dublin natives arrived expecting Derry to roll over and take a rogering. This didn't happen, the natives didn't get the cricket score they were entitled to and booed. Derry setup up defensively, but Dublin happily reverted to 12/13 inside the 45. Their shot selection and shooting were well below par. Their counter attack, especially in the first half was extremely laboured , yet, naturally the entire blame lays at the feet of the northerners who came to visit the 'ROI' to play their game. I said previously that if Derry did adopt a defensive / blanket type style, I'd consider staying away. The truth is, I wouldn't stay away. Regardless of how they play, I'll go.

Mayo are part of the chasing pack. A county littered with brilliant footballers who have been on the cusp in recent years. Like most counties, can be cynical, but play a good brand of football, not overly defensive. They are a dying breed though and sooner or later, they will have adopt a more defensive approach to try to get over the line. McGuinness's mass defence was bore out of necessity. Its the only way Donegal could compete with the big guns in Croke Pk. Micky Harte has resorted to the most defensive setup I've ever seen. Again, out of necessity to compete. These counties take a serious amount of flack for their setup, but why would they change if its reaping results, if its extending their summer? It allows a team who do not have the same advantages of Dublin to compete with Dublin. There's a few  counties who, if all the stars align perfectly, might reach the semi-final, and a few counties who might, at a huge push reach a quarter-final. The vast majority haven't a chance  With the sacrifices being made, it makes sense for counties to go defensive, to nullify a better team and try and sneak a slim victory. More often than not, its far from pretty. From here on, with the setup they have, Dublin will always be in the mix. Something most counties can only dream of.

I've thought about all the suggestions in this thread. I honestly don't know what to do. The mass defence, the swarm tackle, and even the 1 man / 2 man tackle are the games Achilles's heel. It will take a mighty effort resolve this dilemma.
   

[Keyser soze]

Well I don't know what all the fuss is about. There have been a few really turgid games in the league, some okay ones and a few crackers. Last year's championship was pretty much the same. As was last years league and the years before championship etc etc etc.

It has ever been thus, and to suggest that a 0-8 to 0-4 scoreline in a crap game on a horrible evening in March is an aberration and is the death of the game requiring fundamental rule changes won't bear much scrutiny. Ive been to loads of open high scoring games that were sh*te as well.

But sure theres a bandwagon and it gives the media something to climb onto. Last year it was cynical play, next year it ll be something else.

Nothing to see here.

[sheamy]

Benny, using the black card as a stick to beat those who are proposing rule changes is unfair. The Black card was brought into deal with cynical fouling, not legal, defensive, strategies. The performance of the black card is debatable, but it's a separate debate in my view.

Not sure AZ. I think Benny has a very valid point. If you think about it logically the effect of defenders having to be more and more careful does translate into more players becoming defenders to simply fill space and channels on the pitch without having to really put in a tackle which could see them get a black card.

I agree they are separate debates but I do believe the black card has had an indirect effect on systems teams now employ.

Alot of this is us as a nation loving to whinge about something and a poor enough game on a bad night is a good excuse. TV and the egos and wallets of pundits and commentators throws petrol on the fire too.

We'll have some shit games this year and some brilliant ones too. It's always been that way.

I'm with Keyser. Nothing to see here.

[AZOffaly]

He has a point there, but that's not how I took his original post. I thought he was claiming that the black card was being touted as a solution to negative tactics, and it was never that.

I accept that, in a very depressing development, some coaches have decided that if they can't cynically foul anymore, they'll just pack out the defences and choke space instead.

Again, I can see their point of view. It's up to us, as the GAA at large, to decide if that tactic is unpalatable for the game at large. As a coach I understand the will to do whatever it takes in the rules to win. As a spectator I couldn't be arsed paying to watch it.

[sheamy]

Yes, we reserve that right for sure. The GAA need to be very careful though. The black card experience is a good example of this.

I've not heard one workable or sensible solution yet or even a clear definition of what the problem is. That's the place to start.

There are as many scores on average in games as there have ever been.

What exactly is the problem we are trying to solve? what are the outcomes we want?

[Zulu]

Why are lads claiming it is the same it ever was? It isn't. Of course there were always good, bad and mediocre games, true of every sport, but now we are seeing teams adopt a style of play that not only ensures games will be poor spectacles but threatens many of the basic skills of the game. Having 15 lads in your own half will make the game a running, supporting, ball retention sport with little kicking, fewer goals, fewer scores from play, fewer tackles, blocks, high fetching, scores in general and games that will be closed out with 15 minutes to go if teams go a few points up. Anybody not concerned by the trend (not one game) is not concerned enough about the game the say they support. I couldn't care less who wins the next 10 All Irelands but I'd love to think we could be talking about the sport in a positive manner due to the quality of the games and contests we get. I doubt though. Anybody who says teams need to get 15 players behind the ball to be competitive needs to think about that statement a bit more.

[Rossfan]

Just remember Derry lost to Dublin last Saturday.
So whether they go all gung ho and lose 4-17 to 0-9 or defensive and lose 0-8 to 0-4      ...... they still lose and get no League points.

[Keyser soze]

Why are lads claiming it is the same it ever was? It isn't. Of course there were always good, bad and mediocre games, true of every sport, but now we are seeing teams adopt a style of play that not only ensures games will be poor spectacles but threatens many of the basic skills of the game. Having 15 lads in your own half will make the game a running, supporting, ball retention sport with little kicking, fewer goals, fewer scores from play, fewer tackles, blocks, high fetching, scores in general and games that will be closed out with 15 minutes to go if teams go a few points up. Anybody not concerned by the trend (not one game) is not concerned enough about the game the say they support. I couldn't care less who wins the next 10 All Irelands but I'd love to think we could be talking about the sport in a positive manner due to the quality of the games and contests we get. I doubt though. Anybody who says teams need to get 15 players behind the ball to be competitive needs to think about that statement a bit more.

Well how many players were Dublin putting behind the ball?

[Zulu]

Is that meant to be a counter argument? Dublin were reacting to the set up of Derry but that's neither here nor there. Teams don't need to have 15 players in their own half to effectively defend but that's whats happening as the mindset of coaches is negative and fearful. Worst of all the damn thing isn't even effective anymore unless you count losing by less as being effective. It isn't a tactic to win games but to lose them by less.

[AZOffaly]

It can win games if your opponents walk into the buzzsaw, and you have quick counter attacking players to hit them on the break. Donegal were very good at that, and Dublin were the buzzsaw victims.

[Zulu]

That's my point AZ, it's been found out. The likes of Dublin and Kerry will now simply leave their half backs in position and the forwards midfield will track back with the breaking runners if a Donegal or Tyrone turn them over. It was effective as long as the other team played conventional enough and got sucked in but now they just keep their defenders and pass the parcel until they win a free or an opening appears.

[GrandMasterFlash]

Is that meant to be a counter argument? Dublin were reacting to the set up of Derry but that's neither here nor there. Teams don't need to have 15 players in their own half to effectively defend but that's whats happening as the mindset of coaches is negative and fearful. Worst of all the damn thing isn't even effective anymore unless you count losing by less as being effective. It isn't a tactic to win games but to lose them by less.

So it's a tactic more suited to the NFL then? 

[BennyHarp]

He has a point there, but that's not how I took his original post. I thought he was claiming that the black card was being touted as a solution to negative tactics, and it was never that.

I accept that, in a very depressing development, some coaches have decided that if they can't cynically foul anymore, they'll just pack out the defences and choke space instead.

Again, I can see their point of view. It's up to us, as the GAA at large, to decide if that tactic is unpalatable for the game at large. As a coach I understand the will to do whatever it takes in the rules to win. As a spectator I couldn't be arsed paying to watch it.

AZ my original point was that we need to be careful when we change the rules as the solution to one problem can inadvertently create another. I'm not blind enough that when I look at football I don't see the current problems but I possibly have more faith in the managers coming up with tactics to overcome the blanket defence, than I would have in a task force coming up with a new rule to sort out the problem. I think you are right we need to address this situation as an association if we feel it's a big enough issue. Managers will find ways around new rules if they feel they have been forced upon them. We have to encourage managers to get their players kicking the ball again because it is beneficial to them and utilise tactics that are more forward looking than backward looking. I've said before that my solution would be to enforce more rigorously the rules that we have. Firstly, enforce the 4 step rule to encourage clean tackling which will mean players will be forced to kick more often as they are likely to get caught in possession, this might encourage forwards to tackle further up the pitch as they may feel that they have a legitimate chance of turning over possession. It will also force those in possession think more quickly, speeding up the game. Secondly, enforce the closed fist pass with a clean striking movement, remember we tried this before but gave up on it? I think this will make it more difficult to shuffle the ball side ways or behind to a supporting player. He would have to turn his body fully to execute a legitimate fist pass, the positioning of the opposition player could make this difficult, perhaps forcing him to look forward rather than back. Hopefully both these rules would encourage kicking the ball and we can get back to coaching our players how to play with their heads up rather than looking sideways. In Tyrone we have a generation of good ball players with good positional sense but very little ability to look up and pick a pass. Why? Because it's been coached out of them.