Dublin v Derry

[Zulu]

Not surprising that supporters of the teams who play this rubbish are trying to defend it but it's worrying none the less. Teams are now simply taking the fastest way to respectability which is to get everybody back into the scoring zone and make the other team kick from outside it as often as possible, if you turn it over, carry it out and hope to catch them on the break. This bog basic tactic ( which conferred genius status on Jim McG) has been found out now and only leads to the utter tripe we've seen too often recently.

And won Kerry an AI

Yes, in response to tripe tactics of Donegal. You can't seriously argue that you'd like to see football reduced to last year's All Ireland final? If Tyrone continue on the path they are on they'll be beaten at QF or SF stage but only after they've played 4 or 5 unwatchable games. They won't win anything bar, maybe an Ulster title, playing the way they are but the sport will suffer and may well lose it's place as the nations favourite sport. Is turning people off our sport a price worth paying for teams achieving mediocrity?

[Zulu]

Surely when players are giving up their own time and not getting paid to perform, this makes it more about results for them than entertaining those who pay to watch?

And what about the enjoyment of playing? We've heard many players, like Benny Coulter for example, say they didn't enjoy playing the modern IC game. Surely people who love the sport don't want to see it reduced to something neither fans nor players enjoy?

[BennyHarp]

Not surprising that supporters of the teams who play this rubbish are trying to defend it but it's worrying none the less. Teams are now simply taking the fastest way to respectability which is to get everybody back into the scoring zone and make the other team kick from outside it as often as possible, if you turn it over, carry it out and hope to catch them on the break. This bog basic tactic ( which conferred genius status on Jim McG) has been found out now and only leads to the utter tripe we've seen too often recently.

And won Kerry an AI

Yes, in response to tripe tactics of Donegal. You can't seriously argue that you'd like to see football reduced to last year's All Ireland final? If Tyrone continue on the path they are on they'll be beaten at QF or SF stage but only after they've played 4 or 5 unwatchable games. They won't win anything bar, maybe an Ulster title, playing the way they are but the sport will suffer and may well lose it's place as the nations favourite sport. Is turning people off our sport a price worth paying for teams achieving mediocrity?

On the contrary, I'd say that if players see that they can be competitive it might drive players to play for their county rather than put players off. Would you as a county player perfer to compete playing defensive tactics or go get humiliated trying to go toe to toe with the dubs or kerry every year? I'd prefer Tyrone lost a close AI semi than took another trimming v the Dubs in Croker like years gone by.

[BennyHarp]

Surely when players are giving up their own time and not getting paid to perform, this makes it more about results for them than entertaining those who pay to watch?

And what about the enjoyment of playing? We've heard many players, like Benny Coulter for example, say they didn't enjoy playing the modern IC game. Surely people who love the sport don't want to see it reduced to something neither fans nor players enjoy?

And I'm sure even Benny would have been happy enough if he'd won an AI using the tactics. The Kerry lads seemed chuffed enough winning last year after complaining about blankets for years.

[Zulu]

Ok so Benny, you want a sport that makes 25-35 people per year in the country happy while every one else is bored to tears?

[BennyHarp]

Ok so Benny, you want a sport that makes 25-35 people per year in the country happy while every one else is bored to tears?

I want a sport where players think that by using tactics that suit their players then they can compete at a level beyond where they felt possible. I don't want a sport where only one or two squads even feel like they have a chance of being successful like during the 80s. Yes, only one team can be successful, but if players feel they are competing then this can be like lifting a trophy. I hate the thought that every team should play identical tactics because it keeps a few people in the media happy. I've played enough football both on teams that stuff everyone and also on teams on the other end of that and the enjoyment isn't huge either way. Competitive football is what players enjoy and aspiring to be competitive is what drives the amateur player. If defensive tactics help that then I'm all for it. Had Tyrone went toe to toe with Dublin 2 weeks ago, we'd have been bate out the gate. Now we may feel we have a chance (rightly or wrongly) if if had another crack at them b implementing a system that makes it difficult for them. Do Dublin fans really enjoy winning Leinster every year by 20 points or would the enjoyment be a bit more if they came through a few real wars? I'm not saying defensive football is good to watch but it is the tip of the iceberg in GAA tactics and the game will evolve.

Anyway, would it have been anymore attractive to watch Dublin beat Derry by 20 points last night? Would that have satisfied the TV audience and encouraged young kids (especially in Derry) to play the game?

[Wildweasel74]

Given the team Derry where fielding they had to play very defensive, Derry have forwards, they were the highest scoring team in the league last year but that counted for little when they met Donegals defensive set up last year, or getting opened up by Dublin in the league final last year.At the end of the day until Dublin learn to play against defensive set up they not win the all-ireland this year, Kerry can play against it, why not Dublin?

What disappointed me about Derry last night was when they set up to play this way they should have pressed up on the Dublin kick outs and not give the keeper the easy kick out every time. If by chance we beat Down we met Donegal again and the only way to beat them is to mirror them!

[Zulu]

It's not the tip of the iceberg, that's the point. It's gone one sweeper to getting everybody back because that's the best way to keep the other team to a low score. In turn, teams have cottoned on to this and now mirror the tactic and hold onto the ball so as not to turn it over while fruitlessly charging at massed defences. Therefore football will be turned into a game where you don't need defensive skills, be able to kick or be skilful and simply a game with one tactic, get everybody back when you don't have the ball and retain possession when you do. Anybody who can't see we are going down a dangerous path is simply covering their eyes and justifying it on the grounds on competitiveness. Sport has to be more than that. By the way the idea that teams like Tyrone/Derry would be trounced if they played more orthodoxly is nonsense, or if true, perhaps they should look at what they are doing with development squads.

[Zulu]

Given the team Derry where fielding they had to play very defensive, Derry have forwards, they were the highest scoring team in the league last year but that counted for little when they met Donegals defensive set up last year, or getting opened up by Dublin in the league final last year.At the end of the day until Dublin learn to play against defensive set up they not win the all-ireland this year, Kerry can play against it, why not Dublin?

What disappointed me about Derry last night was when they set up to play this way they should have pressed up on the Dublin kick outs and not give the keeper the easy kick out every time. If by chance we beat Down we met Donegal again and the only way to beat them is to mirror them!

Exactly, you do have to mirror them and the more teams who take up this ultra defensive game as their main style of play the more we'll see the rubbish we saw in the all Ireland final, that has to concern anybody who loves football.

[BennyHarp]

It's not the tip of the iceberg, that's the point. It's gone one sweeper to getting everybody back because that's the best way to keep the other team to a low score. In turn, teams have cottoned on to this and now mirror the tactic and hold onto the ball so as not to turn it over while fruitlessly charging at massed defences. Therefore football will be turned into a game where you don't need defensive skills, be able to kick or be skilful and simply a game with one tactic, get everybody back when you don't have the ball and retain possession when you do. Anybody who can't see we are going down a dangerous path is simply covering their eyes and justifying it on the grounds on competitiveness. Sport has to be more than that. By the way the idea that teams like Tyrone/Derry would be trounced if they played more orthodoxly is nonsense, or if true, perhaps they should look at what they are doing with development squads.

Tyrone have been trounced at least twice by Dublin in recent years. Tactics to the level we are seeing are relatively new to gaelic games, the tactics will evolve, this is the tip of the iceberg, if you think that this is the pinnacle of tactical play then you are a little less on the ball than I thought. Coaches have developed effective defensive tactics, the logical step is attacking tactics. I sit and wait patiently for this to happen.....

[INDIANA]

Derry would not normally be a overly defensive team. They are having a bad league and were probably just afraid to getting a beating that would set them back for the summer. The weather conditions make it more difficult to score too.

Ulster have got a reputation for defensive football but you do not win if you cannot score. Compared to the 70s and 80s Ulster teams have been doing much better of late. Most have decent forwards. Top forwards are few throughout the country. In Ulster I feel for example, Murphy and McBearty are quality forwards in Donegal, Quigley in Fermanagh, O'Hare in Down, McManus in Monaghan. Tyrone have Cavanagh and McCurry. Young McShane looks useful too. In my own county aside from Jamie Clarke, Dyas and Stefan Campbell are top forwards. The thing is the game is about attacking and defence. Not just one or the other.

I also find it funny how many give off about the game and yet love how Southampton or Chelsea play soccer. How great they think it is when a minnow defends for 90 minutes to hold a premiership team. Then there are the others who say gaelic is nowhere near as good as rugby. A game that their own experts believe is getting too technical and defensive. A game were it is considered good play to kick the ball out! Not all teams have great players. They use what they have to try and win. It is up to the better team to overcome this. For me that is what makes the game fascinating.

You don't like being criticised up there because you think invented the game.
My suggestion is that ulster forms his own association and develops it's own brand of puke football and let the other 26 counties concentrate on playing Gaelic Football. That way no-one will ever question the rubbish most of your counties are dishing up.
You've got Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cavan  and Derry all playing Gaelic Football's version of the Black Death

[DuffleKing]

Clueless Benny? Dublin are doing quite well against teams who show no ambition whatsoever. Better conditions and with all their players back and fully fit they'll rip these defensive teams apart. They only conceded 0-4 tonight.

Feck me you were impressed by the Dubs? They only conceded 0-4 because Derry are shite and didn't try to attack. Tyrone aren't great and should have beaten them last time out and the Donegal game last year highlighted all their flaws that are still there, have they improved from then? What evidence have you seen to suggest they'll be better against a Donegal style set up this summer than last?

Any team that sets up that defensively are going to be shite going forward, though Derry were admittedly particularly bad. Donegal got every break going last year and I'd imagine that Dublin will simply leave their half backs in their positions when faced with a blanket defence which is all they need to do to beat such teams. It's not rocket science, the blanket defence has been sussed and all the Ulster teams are doing is making games which could be 2-14 to 1-12  into 0-8 to 0-5. Dublin aren't showing their hand yet but anyone, like the boys on Setanta, who thing they aren't working on it in training are simple.

Or  2-21 to 0-16, 2-25 to 1-12 or 3-20 to 1-10,like Laois,Wexford and Meath done last year.
Kerry are probably the only team capable of  beating Dublin in an attacking open game,and I have my doubts whether they would be up to the task either.
Trying to go out and playing open attacking football against Dublin is suicide. There is nothing wrong with what Derry did tonight,Keep it low scoring and close and try and nick it.
This general whinging (Not attacking you on this Zulu) about defensive football and blanket defences is getting pretty tiresome at this stage.

Why is it tiresome BH? It isn't good to watch defensive football so why not criticise it? Football is a rough and tumble game best played at pace where you try and beat your opponent not simply not lose to them.

Why is it all about being "good to watch" Zulu? Defensive games/blanket defences are about trying to beat you opponent,in a war of attrition whereby you manage to outlast your opponent.
I thought this game was about winning,not going out and looking good/stylish.
Blanket defences simply give many teams a better chance of getting something out of a game against superior opponents with better individual players,than going out and playing nice open football and getting slaughtered.

Any sport, especially an amateur one, that is only about winning is a defunct one. Soccer and NFL for example changed rules to make their games more attractive and they deal in billions of pounds and the livelihoods of thousands annually. We don't yet you're saying our league is a results business??? Not a chance.

Remind me of this? Every soccer game I see has eleven players behind the ball. In fact, almost every field sport I can think of has a defensive style of mass numbers behind the ball and protecting the areas from which you are likely to concede scores.

[macdanger2]

Ok so Benny, you want a sport that makes 25-35 people per year in the country happy while every one else is bored to tears?

I want a sport where players think that by using tactics that suit their players then they can compete at a level beyond where they felt possible. I don't want a sport where only one or two squads even feel like they have a chance of being successful like during the 80s. Yes, only one team can be successful, but if players feel they are competing then this can be like lifting a trophy. I hate the thought that every team should play identical tactics because it keeps a few people in the media happy. I've played enough football both on teams that stuff everyone and also on teams on the other end of that and the enjoyment isn't huge either way. Competitive football is what players enjoy and aspiring to be competitive is what drives the amateur player. If defensive tactics help that then I'm all for it. Had Tyrone went toe to toe with Dublin 2 weeks ago, we'd have been bate out the gate. Now we may feel we have a chance (rightly or wrongly) if if had another crack at them b implementing a system that makes it difficult for them. Do Dublin fans really enjoy winning Leinster every year by 20 points or would the enjoyment be a bit more if they came through a few real wars? I'm not saying defensive football is good to watch but it is the tip of the iceberg in GAA tactics and the game will evolve.

Anyway, would it have been anymore attractive to watch Dublin beat Derry by 20 points last night? Would that have satisfied the TV audience and encouraged young kids (especially in Derry) to play the game?

Hard to disagree with any of that

[DuffleKing]

Derry would not normally be a overly defensive team. They are having a bad league and were probably just afraid to getting a beating that would set them back for the summer. The weather conditions make it more difficult to score too.

Ulster have got a reputation for defensive football but you do not win if you cannot score. Compared to the 70s and 80s Ulster teams have been doing much better of late. Most have decent forwards. Top forwards are few throughout the country. In Ulster I feel for example, Murphy and McBearty are quality forwards in Donegal, Quigley in Fermanagh, O'Hare in Down, McManus in Monaghan. Tyrone have Cavanagh and McCurry. Young McShane looks useful too. In my own county aside from Jamie Clarke, Dyas and Stefan Campbell are top forwards. The thing is the game is about attacking and defence. Not just one or the other.

I also find it funny how many give off about the game and yet love how Southampton or Chelsea play soccer. How great they think it is when a minnow defends for 90 minutes to hold a premiership team. Then there are the others who say gaelic is nowhere near as good as rugby. A game that their own experts believe is getting too technical and defensive. A game were it is considered good play to kick the ball out! Not all teams have great players. They use what they have to try and win. It is up to the better team to overcome this. For me that is what makes the game fascinating.

You don't like being criticised up there because you think invented the game.
My suggestion is that ulster forms his own association and develops it's own brand of puke football and let the other 26 counties concentrate on playing Gaelic Football. That way no-one will ever question the rubbish most of your counties are dishing up.
You've got Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cavan  and Derry all playing Gaelic Football's version of the Black Death

In 2014 Kerry were the most defensive team in the country. They won the All Ireland
In 2012 Donegal were the most defensive team in the country. They won the All Ireland
In 2011 Dublin were the most defensive team in the country. They won the All Ireland

All 26 county teams

[INDIANA]

Derry would not normally be a overly defensive team. They are having a bad league and were probably just afraid to getting a beating that would set them back for the summer. The weather conditions make it more difficult to score too.

Ulster have got a reputation for defensive football but you do not win if you cannot score. Compared to the 70s and 80s Ulster teams have been doing much better of late. Most have decent forwards. Top forwards are few throughout the country. In Ulster I feel for example, Murphy and McBearty are quality forwards in Donegal, Quigley in Fermanagh, O'Hare in Down, McManus in Monaghan. Tyrone have Cavanagh and McCurry. Young McShane looks useful too. In my own county aside from Jamie Clarke, Dyas and Stefan Campbell are top forwards. The thing is the game is about attacking and defence. Not just one or the other.

I also find it funny how many give off about the game and yet love how Southampton or Chelsea play soccer. How great they think it is when a minnow defends for 90 minutes to hold a premiership team. Then there are the others who say gaelic is nowhere near as good as rugby. A game that their own experts believe is getting too technical and defensive. A game were it is considered good play to kick the ball out! Not all teams have great players. They use what they have to try and win. It is up to the better team to overcome this. For me that is what makes the game fascinating.

You don't like being criticised up there because you think invented the game.
My suggestion is that ulster forms his own association and develops it's own brand of puke football and let the other 26 counties concentrate on playing Gaelic Football. That way no-one will ever question the rubbish most of your counties are dishing up.
You've got Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cavan  and Derry all playing Gaelic Football's version of the Black Death

In 2014 Kerry were the most defensive team in the country. They won the All Ireland
In 2012 Donegal were the most defensive team in the country. They won the All Ireland
In 2011 Dublin were the most defensive team in the country. They won the All Ireland

All 26 county teams

Did you look at Kerry and Dublin's scoring rates? I suggest you do.