Paddy Kilety's thespianic debut in Windsor Park Bigotry play!

[Main Street]

Charlton is also on record talking about armed guards on the bus and going being terrified driving through the 'mountains' to get to the match. Inspite of the fact that the bus had no guards (armed or otherwise) and the bus didn't go near any mountains (or even small hills) on the way to WP. I suppose if you talk enough shite some of it sticks. Charlton was pissed off because we didn't just roll-over and allow the RoI to qualify, as he expected us to.

Was he talking shite Sammy?
from the herald tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/1993/11/17/irish_3.php
"The Ireland manager, Charlton, had requested that his team remain until Wednesday afternoon in a heavily secured hotel at Carrickmacross, a short bus ride south of Belfast. But the international soccer federation, FIFA, insisted per regulations that the visiting team arrive 24 hours before kickoff, requiring Ireland to fly north Tuesday and be escorted by armored police vehicles to a hotel chosen after four changes of mind."
Charlton was a pro he knew it was going to be a hard game like everybody else, it was shite like that that no manager wants.

[Donagh]

Charlton is also on record talking about armed guards on the bus and going being terrified driving through the 'mountains' to get to the match. Inspite of the fact that the bus had no guards (armed or otherwise) and the bus didn't go near any mountains (or even small hills) on the way to WP. I suppose if you talk enough shite some of it sticks. Charlton was pissed off because we didn't just roll-over and allow the RoI to qualify, as he expected us to.

Okay then Sammy, tell us the route Jack's bus took that night (avoiding Black, White, Divis Mountains & Cave Hill). How you know he took that route and tell us how you know there were no (armed) peelers on the bus.

[Evil Genius]

Charlton is also on record talking about armed guards on the bus and going being terrified driving through the 'mountains' to get to the match. Inspite of the fact that the bus had no guards (armed or otherwise) and the bus didn't go near any mountains (or even small hills) on the way to WP. I suppose if you talk enough shite some of it sticks. Charlton was pissed off because we didn't just roll-over and allow the RoI to qualify, as he expected us to.

Was he talking shite Sammy?
from the herald tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/1993/11/17/irish_3.php
"The Ireland manager, Charlton, had requested that his team remain until Wednesday afternoon in a heavily secured hotel at Carrickmacross, a short bus ride south of Belfast. But the international soccer federation, FIFA, insisted per regulations that the visiting team arrive 24 hours before kickoff, requiring Ireland to fly north Tuesday and be escorted by armored police vehicles to a hotel chosen after four changes of mind."
Charlton was a pro he knew it was going to be a hard game like everybody else, it was shite like that that no manager wants.

Disingenuous, Main Street. FIFA impose such a requirement on all teams, without exception, in order to avoid teams leaving it too late and risk missing the kick-off. It also tends to preclude home fans/border guards/political demonstrators etc from getting any chance to disrupt the progress of the visiting team on their entry into the country. (Remember, FIFA has over 200 members, some of them in regions where relationships can be very tense etc).
Consequently, the host nation is held strictly responsible for the safety and security of the visiting team.
As an experienced ex-international, Charlton knew all that, but still made an issue of it, despite having no chance of succeeding.
As for the armed guards etc, it is normal procedure for local police to provide an escort for a party like this and in NI at the time, all police vehicles were armoured and all police officers were armed.  
Or, to put it another way, no police vehicle was ever going to travel within 100 miles of Carrickmacross unless they were armed and armoured. Charlton should just count himself lucky that they weren't helicoptered in!  

[Main Street]

Disingenuous, Main Street.

Nothing disingenious about it at all.
If you were following the thread, hard work I know, it was Sammy who brought this up. Said the armed guards didn't exist, and Jack was talking shite.
I am merely a messenger not an agenda merchant.

[magickingdom]

the piss poor reaction of the crowd in wp that night was a real eye opener for many people in the south. always admired billy b until then...

[SammyG]

Charlton is also on record talking about armed guards on the bus and going being terrified driving through the 'mountains' to get to the match. Inspite of the fact that the bus had no guards (armed or otherwise) and the bus didn't go near any mountains (or even small hills) on the way to WP. I suppose if you talk enough shite some of it sticks. Charlton was pissed off because we didn't just roll-over and allow the RoI to qualify, as he expected us to.

Was he talking shite Sammy?
from the herald tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/1993/11/17/irish_3.php
"The Ireland manager, Charlton, had requested that his team remain until Wednesday afternoon in a heavily secured hotel at Carrickmacross, a short bus ride south of Belfast. But the international soccer federation, FIFA, insisted per regulations that the visiting team arrive 24 hours before kickoff, requiring Ireland to fly north Tuesday and be escorted by armored police vehicles to a hotel chosen after four changes of mind."
Charlton was a pro he knew it was going to be a hard game like everybody else, it was shite like that that no manager wants.

Yep because a newspaper reported what Charlton said, that automatically makes it true.  The team bus had a police escort (as did the NI team bus and as would happen in any town, even Dublin) to get it through the traffic. Charlton made claims about having to have armed guards 'on the bus' and various other nonsense, all of which was made up by him (or more likely his ghost writer).

Donagh

One team stayed at the Culloden and one at the Europa (can't remember which is which and I can't be arsed looking it up) neither of these hotels require you to go near any 'mountains' to get to WP.

[Donagh]

Charlton is also on record talking about armed guards on the bus and going being terrified driving through the 'mountains' to get to the match. Inspite of the fact that the bus had no guards (armed or otherwise) and the bus didn't go near any mountains (or even small hills) on the way to WP. I suppose if you talk enough shite some of it sticks. Charlton was pissed off because we didn't just roll-over and allow the RoI to qualify, as he expected us to.

Was he talking shite Sammy?
from the herald tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/1993/11/17/irish_3.php
"The Ireland manager, Charlton, had requested that his team remain until Wednesday afternoon in a heavily secured hotel at Carrickmacross, a short bus ride south of Belfast. But the international soccer federation, FIFA, insisted per regulations that the visiting team arrive 24 hours before kickoff, requiring Ireland to fly north Tuesday and be escorted by armored police vehicles to a hotel chosen after four changes of mind."
Charlton was a pro he knew it was going to be a hard game like everybody else, it was shite like that that no manager wants.

Yep because a newspaper reported what Charlton said, that automatically makes it true.  The team bus had a police escort (as did the NI team bus and as would happen in any town, even Dublin) to get it through the traffic. Charlton made claims about having to have armed guards 'on the bus' and various other nonsense, all of which was made up by him (or more likely his ghost writer).

Donagh

One team stayed at the Culloden and one at the Europa (can't remember which is which and I can't be arsed looking it up) neither of these hotels require you to go near any 'mountains' to get to WP.

So you don't know what route they took. Why didn't you just say that? These hotels may not 'require' you to go near mountains normally, but maybe they were trying to avoid all of the sc**bag areas that would stone the Fenian bus. But sure this you know - suits the agenda more to make Jack out to be a liar. 

[SammyG]

So you don't know what route they took. Why didn't you just say that? These hotels may not 'require' you to go near mountains normally, but maybe they were trying to avoid all of the sc**bag areas that would stone the Fenian bus. But sure this you know - suits the agenda more to make Jack out to be a liar. 

The route the bus took and the details about armed guards (or the lack of them) were all published at the time of the original allegation. Sorry I haven't got a photographic memory, I could have just bullshitted and claimed I remembered the exact route, rather than giving an honest answer but you'd then have turned round and pulled me up for bullshitting. When I get half an hour I'll try and fond the orginal details and let you have them.

[saffron sam2]

and was shamefully led by the North of Ireland manager and goalkeeper who conducted those mocking the greysteel atrocity etc.
Disgraceful - and unquestionably actionable. At one stage, when the support was getting behind the NI team (rather than abusing the ROI), Bingham tried to encourage them on - he wanted to finish his career on a win, after all. Charlton - a fiery individual at the best of times - took exception; then again, he was facing the possibility of not qualifying at that stage. You're similarly making it up about Tommy Wright; and as for Greysteele, that would be comical were the event itself not so terrible and your slur not so offensive
Anyone who cares to study the two individuals' record will know that these things simply could not have happened.
Billy Bingham frequently picked team with more Catholics than Protestants. He honoured the likes of O'Neill and Jennings with the captaincy in preference to alternative candidates like McIlroy. Throughout his time, the players were all united in the one cause and hugely committed, with considerable success (two World Cup qualifications). Do you think that Catholics like Martin O'Neill would have played under a sectarian bigot of the kind you allege? Do you think a sectarian bigot would have asked a Falls Road Catholic (Gerry Armstrong) to be Best Man at his wedding, or Gerry have accepted?
As for Tommy Wright, after this game (Bingham's last), he was picked to play 13 more times for NI by new manager Bryan Hamilton. Hamilton hasn't a sectarian bone in his body, as evidenced by the fact that he was subsequently happy to accept a senior consultancy role for the FAI in Dublin, where his contribution was greatly appreciated.
Further, there is no evidence that Wright ever had any problems with regular Catholic teammates like Gerry Taggart. Indeed, when his playing career ended, he and Michael Hughes were two of the "Prague Five" who were arrested in 2001, for an altercation which occurred whilst they were out on a post-match piss-up. I've never met Mikey H, but I simply don't believe he would freely choose to go out socialising with a known bigot.

A few points.

1. Various contemporary reports state that sections of the crowd did indeed mock the Greysteel atrocity. Are you saying this din't happen?
2. Various contemporary reports state that Bingham and Wright did indeed try to 'encourage' the crowd.  You admit as much yourself.

Now Bingham has been to Windsor Park often enough to know the types of songs that prevailed in those days.  At best his decision to 'encourage' the crowd can be judged as being ill-advised and heat of the moment stuff.  At worst, well you decide.

You point to Bingham's record of picking Catholics both for his team and as captains as evidence of his non-sectarian nature.  I point out that you are talking bollix.  As manager of the team it is incumbent upon Bingham to pick the best players for the team, regardless of his or their beliefs / politics/ religion.  That is all he did, it proves he fulfilled his role as manager and does not prove anything about his sectarianism (or lack thereof). Similarly, by appointing O'Neill (a European Cup winner) or Jennings (then the most capped player in the world) as captains in preference to for example McIlroy (a journeyman midifelder in a poor Man U team) only proves that Bingham is doing what he feels is best for the team.  By way of analogy, allow me to use this example.  For decades, Linfield adopted a policy of excluding Catholics from playing for the club (a policy condoned / funded by the IFA). This policy has been stopped, not for any moral reasons, but because Linfield were falling behind other clubs like Glentoran and Portadown who didn't have such a policy. John Laverty has written a good article about this particular topic.  By extrapolation of your previous point, the Linfield board / management etc. were guilty of sectarianism one day, yet the same people couldn't possibily be bigots the next day when they signed their first taig.  You have also tried this 'they pick Catholics - they can't be bigots' approach in the past with the NISFA on a previous thread. I ask you several questions then; they remain unanswered - can I 'assume that you don't/can't object to the rest of my rebuttals and corrections?'

Allow me to use another analogy. The press officer for the ANISC is involved in an anti-Catholic protest in north Belfast.  This sectarianism doesn't stop the ANISC allowing him to remain in his position.  Do they share his sectarianism? Or for the press officer and the members, is it also possible to read Bingham / O'Neill, Armstrong, Donaghy etc.?

As with Wright, I don't see the relevance of the infamous titty bar incident.  I first came across Michael Hughes when he was still at St. Louis'; I have never once heard him called Mikey. Is this an attempt at Ulsterising him?

I am prepared to accept that both Wright and Bingham were simply a wee bit carried away and not being overtly sectarian, but i can perfectly understand the viewpoint of those who see something more sinister in their actions.

Packie Bonner said it was ten times worse than anything he'd experienced at Ibrox
Perhaps, but GSpain who was there with the travelling support has stated on this very website that he had experienced worse at other matches and that in his opinion, the abuse at Windsor was hugely exagerated.

With all due respect, I'll take Bonner's word any day. Using GSpain as a source shows the weakness of your argument. GSpain on this site and others has been consistent with his particular brand of posting. He certainly seems to go out of his way to try to appease the owcers and his reputation on this site would not be exactly high.  In this case, I think he is simply scared that an owc poster may come back to him with the reply "Whatabout the ROI team playing IRA songs on their bus on the way to the game?"

Once again it emphasises the unwillingness and inability of those who claim to support football for all to recognise the depth of the problem, instead they adopt the nutter with a 20p piece or a few dozen Ranger supporters excuses.
If the IFA and supporters were refusing to acknowledge there was a problem, then why would they even bother with a solution ("Football For All") in the first place?    People in denial invariably carry on as before. (Then again, you'd know all about that)

In fariness to Fearon, the word you missed out on is depth. We are frequently told that there is no barrier to anyone playing soccer at any level in Northern Ireland.  That obviously isn't the case and unless and until those charged with organising soccer in Northern Ireland recognise this then, yes they (and you) are in denial. 

That is the reason why I consider the FFA campaign to be a complete sham
No, you consider it to be "a complete sham" because you are an out-and-out bigot whose prejudices have become so ingrained that they do not permit you to give credence to anything which might challenge them

and unworthy of any credit whatsoever.
The day we get credit from you is the day we know that we've gone seriously wrong. Not only have numerous credible organisations like UEFA, the City of Brussels, the Sports Council and the NI Community Relations Council etc consistently acknowledged the good work being done by FFA, but also individuals like Neil Lennon and Dessie McGinnis are also on record as endorsing it. What was it you termed these latter two? "Disgraceful"? 

In the past you have alluded to the fact that many protestants turned away from supporting NI due to the Billy Boys.  There is no question that with an improved atmosphere that many of these people are returning. To that end FFA has undoubtedly been a success.  However I don't think that FFA has been a success with regards to Catholics / nationalists.  There are many reasons for this, some beyond the control of the IFA, but many that they could act upon.

A think tank called Democratic Dialogue (set up at the behest of the IFA) has recommended the removal of GSTQ. So far the IFA has failed to react.  In addition a person called Jim Rainey has stated in the press that the majority of NI supporters would probably be against the removal of GSTQ and that any work done by FFA could be undone.  This quote highlights the crux of the issue that needs to grasped. Whilst it is entirely likely that the majority of current fans would like to see it remain, the majority of people in NI (potential fans, Football For All) would like to see the back of it. Same with the use of widely discredited Ulster banner.

IFA / FFA seem to have decided what the contentious issues are and even when others are highlighted they refuse to act.  For FFA to be a success, people involved in soccer in Northern Ireland at all levels must be included in consultations and any recommendations need to be acted upon.  Until then FFA will remain a chance wasted.

[Main Street]

Yep because a newspaper reported what Charlton said, that automatically makes it true.  The team bus had a police escort (as did the NI team bus and as would happen in any town, even Dublin) to get it through the traffic. Charlton made claims about having to have armed guards 'on the bus' and various other nonsense, all of which was made up by him (or more likely his ghost writer).

The article ticks the boxes as being an account of the situation. It is a fair reference. Even BB get's in his mercenary dig .
Whether the armed gaurds were on the bus or travelled in escorts and were outside the bus while the players were getting on and off is irrelevant. Machine gun at the ready, armed police, were a common feature in NI then, it's not exactly a sensational revelation.
As I recall, my reaction at that time was that the FAI were acting like a bunch of wimps in trying to get the game played elsewhere. The FAI have whined like puppies in other situations as well.
Intimidation from NI supporters was never going to materialize into a Montevideo situation.
As for Charlton's desire to travel on the day from Carrick, that's fair enough, keep the team away from the security scenario.
Managers moan, it was always going to be a tough game without the added extraordinary hype and tension.
AFAIR Brasil were allowed to fly into La Paz a couple of hours before an important WCQ game, altitude issues.

[fred the red]

will this show ever make the big screen?

[stew]

the piss poor reaction of the crowd in wp that night was a real eye opener for many people in the south. always admired billy b until then...

Agree 100% with that.

I was there and it was frightening the level of hate levelled at the Republics team and their supporters, of course very few showed themselves because if they had they might have been kicked to death such was the palpable hatred in the ground.

That was then, things have improved a ton since then.

As for Bingham, I liked him until that game as wel, after the game, after seeing his antics first hand, I hated him for a while, after that I simply didnt respect him anymore. I thought there was a chance we were going to die, is it any wonder I dont have much time for a sport that had that much hatred attached to it.

[ardmhachaabu]

Haven't read the whole thread, life's too short for sectarianism from both sides and really can't be arsed with that garbage.

Anyway, all I wanted to say was that Marie Jones was quoted in the Irish News today as saying she wouldn't change a word of it...