The same-sex marriage referendum debate

[muppet]

Has bullying at school not tragically led to suicides? Will the children being raised in same sex relationships not inevitably be taunted ,ribbed and bullied at school on account of this? What about the children themselves who will have no say in who they're placed with and might well resent this even violently (as has been the case with victims of clerical child abuse) when they grow up/reach the age of reason?

Simply not natural,not normal not needed.

Wow. Your main issue with victims of clerical child abuse, is that they might well become violent as adults.

Come to think of it, considering you post under your real name, I can see why you are concerned.

[heganboy]

Tomorrow in the US, the supreme court hears the closing arguments in the case for the right to marriage. The gist according to the legal community, is that in order to rule against the right to gay marriage, the Supreme court would need to rule against the right to marriage in any case.

In order to rule against the gay couples and their children bringing the challenge, a majority of the justices would have to conclude that marriage is not a fundamental right with respect to straight couples, according to University of Chicago law professor Geoffrey Stone.
The judges would also have to decide that there is no legal animus to state laws that limit who can get married – and that laws disadvantaging LGBT citizens are not suspect under the equal protection clause of the US constitution's 14th amendment.

I consider myself lucky to live in a town, and on a street where there are many same sex couples bringing up children. To be perfectly honest the effort and dedication they put in to their children's lives make me and most "straight" couples look like we're doing a half ass job.

On another note I come from a pretty big family, and I'm pleased to say that two of my cousins have had same sex marriages to their long term partners and are all the happier for it.

On the flip side of the blossoming tolerance for difference in Ireland, one of my relatives has had significant gender identity issues and is struggling badly both psychologically within themselves, and also with having abuse hurled at them when out in public. Its a long road but its good to see some steps forward are occurring...

[AZOffaly]

heganboy, with all due respect, is this really the case?

To be perfectly honest the effort and dedication they put in to their children's lives make me and most "straight" couples look like we're doing a half ass job.

Do you really think that gay couples, or even the gay couples on your street are such great parents that they make straight parents look bad in comparison? I accuse you of gilding the lily sir

Why can't we just say gay couples are as good and as bad as everyone else at trying to be a parent. It's a tough job, and who you sleep with doesn't make you better or worse at it.

[J70]

Has bullying at school not tragically led to suicides? Will the children being raised in same sex relationships not inevitably be taunted ,ribbed and bullied at school on account of this? What about the children themselves who will have no say in who they're placed with and might well resent this even violently (as has been the case with victims of clerical child abuse) when they grow up/reach the age of reason?

Simply not natural,not normal not needed.

I fail to see the logic of your bullying argument Tony.

Kids bully anyone who is different or doesn't conform. We've all been or seen friends and aquaintances bullied for a myriad of reasons. Bullies, being the type of people that they are, will seize any on any perceived chink in the armour to do their damage. If its not the kid with the gay parents, it will be the one with the cross eyes, the lisp, the threatening good looks, the academic success/failure, the wealthy/poor family, the different accent, the different race etc. etc. The black kids in the US south in the 50s and 60s faced serious, criminal and terrorist-level threats when blazing the trail in ending segregated schools, including from their would-be class mates. That hatred was learned, passed down from parent to child and from community to child. But the civil rights people faced it down, and eventually society evolved. If there are still neandertals out there who will teach their kids that homosexuality and gay marriage  is something to be feared and suitable fodder for bullying behavior, then those people need to be faced down and ostracized. You don't respond to and beat threats and bullying by backing down. You fight it head on with courage and logic and reason, and if necessary in the case of child, maybe with fists too. Bullies are generally cowards, picking on the (perceived) weak and the vulnerable. It might be rough for some kids at first when it comes to gay parents, but the bullies will lose in the end.

[AZOffaly]

The threatening good looks? I was never bullied! Oh, wait.

[AZOffaly]

By the way, has it been proven that bullies are generally cowards? In my experience the bullies are the big tough ignorant hoors. Cowardice doesn't really come into it except in American TV programs.

[heganboy]

heganboy, with all due respect, is this really the case?

To be perfectly honest the effort and dedication they put in to their children's lives make me and most "straight" couples look like we're doing a half ass job.

Do you really think that gay couples, or even the gay couples on your street are such great parents that they make straight parents look bad in comparison? I accuse you of gilding the lily sir

Why can't we just say gay couples are as good and as bad as everyone else at trying to be a parent. It's a tough job, and who you sleep with doesn't make you better or worse at it.

AZ, not making the case that anyone is or is not a better parent, the point I was trying to make is that their effort and dedication is unreal- kids never miss a practice, always on time for games, organizing fund raisers, thank you coach at the end of any session etc. (admittedly based on a sample size that statistically holds no water whatsoever). I would not say that effort and dedication is the barometer for good parenting. And I will admit to some lily gilding...

[muppet]

heganboy, with all due respect, is this really the case?

To be perfectly honest the effort and dedication they put in to their children's lives make me and most "straight" couples look like we're doing a half ass job.

Do you really think that gay couples, or even the gay couples on your street are such great parents that they make straight parents look bad in comparison? I accuse you of gilding the lily sir

Why can't we just say gay couples are as good and as bad as everyone else at trying to be a parent. It's a tough job, and who you sleep with doesn't make you better or worse at it.

AZ, not making the case that anyone is or is not a better parent, the point I was trying to make is that their effort and dedication is unreal- kids never miss a practice, always on time for games, organizing fund raisers, thank you coach at the end of any session etc. (admittedly based on a sample size that statistically holds no water whatsoever). I would not say that effort and dedication is the barometer for good parenting. And I will admit to some lily gilding...

It may also be the case that because of the stigma attached to them, they feel they have to try harder than everyone else.

[AZOffaly]

heganboy, with all due respect, is this really the case?

To be perfectly honest the effort and dedication they put in to their children's lives make me and most "straight" couples look like we're doing a half ass job.

Do you really think that gay couples, or even the gay couples on your street are such great parents that they make straight parents look bad in comparison? I accuse you of gilding the lily sir

Why can't we just say gay couples are as good and as bad as everyone else at trying to be a parent. It's a tough job, and who you sleep with doesn't make you better or worse at it.

AZ, not making the case that anyone is or is not a better parent, the point I was trying to make is that their effort and dedication is unreal- kids never miss a practice, always on time for games, organizing fund raisers, thank you coach at the end of any session etc. (admittedly based on a sample size that statistically holds no water whatsoever). I would not say that effort and dedication is the barometer for good parenting. And I will admit to some lily gilding...

It may also be the case that because of the stigma attached to them, they feel they have to try harder than everyone else.

Or else they are mad about sports

[deiseach]

[T Fearon]

But the children placed in gay relationships for their upbringing have no say in where they're placed.That is unfair and a potential source of resentment in later life.

How are children brought up in an abnormal situation going to grow up to be normal,which is the basic right of every child?

[J70]

But the children placed in gay relationships for their upbringing have no say in where they're placed.That is unfair and a potential source of resentment in later life.

How are children brought up in an abnormal situation going to grow up to be normal,which is the basic right of every child?

When I was a kid, I sometimes wished I was from a rich American family rather than growing up on a rural Donegal farm smelling of cow dung and silage and spending evenings in the bog. I didn't have a say in having to work since the age of 7 or 8.

What about poor inner city kids from single parent homes.  Or kids who are abused? Or live in a place ravaged by war or disease?

A child in western society is in no way compromised just on account of having same sex parents.

[T Fearon]

So would you prefer to have been raised by two mammies only or two daddies only?

[J70]

So would you prefer to have been raised by two mammies only or two daddies only?

I had loving parents,  luckily enough,  so I wouldn't swap any of it. But I have neither seen nor heard anything to suggest that same sex parents could not have given me a similarly loving and effective upbringing. Engagement and love are the keys.

[easytiger95]

Guys this is a complete red herring, and I apologise for my part in steering the trawler this way. To use another nautical metaphor this ship has already sailed....

From the Irish Times Q and A on the referendum -

If I vote Yes, am I voting to allow same-sex couples adopt children?
Up until recently, only a married couple or a single person (regardless of sexuality) could adopt a child. Some children in Ireland have been and are being raised by same-sex couples, though in such cases only one of the two individuals, in the eyes of the law, was the child's parent. In recent weeks, however, the Oireachtas passed the Children and Family Relationships Bill. This major reform of family law allows civil partners and cohabiting couples who have lived together for three years to adopt. That will remain the case irrespective of the outcome of the referendum.


Same sex couple are already allowed to adopt by law. The only difference the referendum will make is that they will be married if and when they do so. Anyone continuing to argue this line either a. genuinely has a problem with a child being reared by gays but is ignorant of the referendum's wording and purpose or b. is fighting the last battle in a cynical attempt to win the next one. Hello emotive posters when they damn well know Aughrim is already lost on that score.