Author Topic: Ashers cake controversy.  (Read 42585 times)

Franko

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #555 on: October 10, 2018, 10:10:35 PM »
Itís definitely not simple. The Supreme Court overturned the lower courts on the basis that they had to wide a definition for dissociable discrimination (which Iíve incorrectly referred to above as indirect discrimination). Particularly in this instance where the Supreme Court held people who are not gay may request such a slogan on a cake in order to support friends or family who are. In which case you canít say that those wanting such a slogan on a cake will always or almost always be members of protected class. Annoyingly though the court stopped well short of explaining exactly how wide the definition should be using a very narrow definition as an example as opposed to an explanation. To me that begs the question what if Mr Lee has requested a picture of himself with the words ďproud to be gayĒ. Itís not clear to me from the judgement if a refusal by Ashers to make such a cake would have been discriminatory.

This is further compounded by the judgement suggesting the definition of dissociable descrimination may be wider for political opinion but again failing to define its width.

Finally the judgement discussed how Ashers may not have breached discrimination legislation relating to political opinion because of their own convention rights but it remains silent on whether or not the same protections would have been available had they considered discrimination legislation relating to sexual orientation which is made against a different legislative framework.

All in all I have to say I thought it was a particularly interesting case with potentially very wide ramifications.

After reading it Iím still stuck on the point I made near the start of this thread.

Refusing to provide a service to someone simply because they are a member of a protected class is wrong.

Refusing to make or sell a product but of the nature of that product is not. For example halal food.

Refusing to provide a service that is almost exclusively only going to be requested by members of a protected class is still somewhat of a grey area.

Not to be picky here but surely halal food would fall squarely into the third category also?

PS.  Big fan of your work on this site David.  Your posts are always well reasoned and fact based, which is a breath of fresh air.

Gold

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #556 on: October 10, 2018, 11:47:51 PM »
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness
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armaghniac

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #557 on: October 11, 2018, 01:25:23 AM »
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness

While this thread seems to be regarded as an opportunity for some to engage in gratuitous insults of people, this case has nothing to do with God or the belief in same. 

This was a deliberate attempt to get people to endorse the political campaign of their opponents and that is the issue.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

HiMucker

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #558 on: October 11, 2018, 09:01:46 AM »
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness

While this thread seems to be regarded as an opportunity for some to engage in gratuitous insults of people, this case has nothing to do with God or the belief in same. 

This was a deliberate attempt to get people to endorse the political campaign of their opponents and that is the issue.
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....

tonto1888

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #559 on: October 11, 2018, 09:03:41 AM »
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...

Same

Literally believing in Fairies/Santa/Easter Bunny

Madness

While this thread seems to be regarded as an opportunity for some to engage in gratuitous insults of people, this case has nothing to do with God or the belief in same. 

This was a deliberate attempt to get people to endorse the political campaign of their opponents and that is the issue.
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....

Took the words out of my mouth

johnnycool

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #560 on: October 11, 2018, 09:09:20 AM »
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor …ire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

But is the converse of that also true?

We use a print company that also prints leaflets for the DUP.

Am I to discern from the fact that because they print DUP party literature that they also have that political mindset and I should pull my business from them in protest?

ardtole

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #561 on: October 11, 2018, 09:23:41 AM »
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor …ire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

But is the converse of that also true?

We use a print company that also prints leaflets for the DUP.

Am I to discern from the fact that because they print DUP party literature that they also have that political mindset and I should pull my business from them in protest?

The majority of businesses are focused solely on profit, and run their businesses accordingly. Ashes would be an exception but personally I think they should have the right to refuse a job because it is at odds with their beliefs.

johnnycool

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #562 on: October 11, 2018, 09:52:59 AM »
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor …ire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

But is the converse of that also true?

We use a print company that also prints leaflets for the DUP.

Am I to discern from the fact that because they print DUP party literature that they also have that political mindset and I should pull my business from them in protest?

The majority of businesses are focused solely on profit, and run their businesses accordingly. Ashes would be an exception but personally I think they should have the right to refuse a job because it is at odds with their beliefs.

How am I meant to know that though?

RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #563 on: October 11, 2018, 10:02:14 AM »
Any business has the right to refuse to do a bespoke job. It happens all the time. Its not discrimination*.

No business has the right to refuse someone an existing item based on that person's creed or sexual orientation.


Pretty straightforward to me - not at all surprised that the legal system seen fit to line their pockets to the tune of >£500k in meandering to that conclusion.



*Here, Charles Hurst - I want a new ferrari that is painted black with pink dots for 20p. What do you mean you aren't going to do that? DISCRIMINATION!!!! Whats the equality commission's number?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 10:18:24 AM by RadioGAAGAA »
i usse an speelchekor

armaghniac

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #564 on: October 11, 2018, 10:36:52 AM »
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....


Took the words out of my mouth

I believe that a campaign to undermine marriage, a fundamental building block of human society, is sordid.
God didn't tell me that.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 11:37:27 AM by armaghniac »
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

tonto1888

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #565 on: October 11, 2018, 11:49:47 AM »
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....


Took the words out of my mouth

I believe that a campaign to undermine marriage, a fundamental building block of human society, is sordid.
God didn't tell me that.

So gay marriage undermines marriage? I assume you think divorce is sordid too

trailer

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #566 on: October 11, 2018, 11:57:19 AM »
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....


Took the words out of my mouth

I believe that a campaign to undermine marriage, a fundamental building block of human society, is sordid.
God didn't tell me that.

If you think two people of the same sex getting married undermine's Marriage then you have no understanding of what Marriage is and where the concept of Marriage came from.
Before we can go forward, you must look back.

michaelg

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #567 on: October 11, 2018, 12:10:45 PM »
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....


Took the words out of my mouth

I believe that a campaign to undermine marriage, a fundamental building block of human society, is sordid.
God didn't tell me that.
If it's a fundamental building block of human society, why deny it to gay couples?

armaghniac

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #568 on: October 11, 2018, 12:15:28 PM »
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....


Took the words out of my mouth

I believe that a campaign to undermine marriage, a fundamental building block of human society, is sordid.
God didn't tell me that.
If it's a fundamental building block of human society, why deny it to gay couples?

Why deny it to someone  and their mother?
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Maiden1

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #569 on: October 11, 2018, 12:28:27 PM »
A sordid campaign according to you. You let the mask slip there a bit, but sure nothing to do with God or your beliefs....


Took the words out of my mouth

I believe that a campaign to undermine marriage, a fundamental building block of human society, is sordid.
God didn't tell me that.
If it's a fundamental building block of human society, why deny it to gay couples?

Why deny it to someone  and their mother?
The mother took the order, the son overruled her later.
If you want something, you have to work for it. Now quiet they're about to announce the lottery no's