Author Topic: Ashers cake controversy.  (Read 44209 times)

David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #540 on: October 10, 2018, 04:51:57 PM »
Iíve read Lady Haleís judgement now and a couple of things occur to me.

1.  Iíve confused dissociable discrimination and indirect discrimination above.
2. The remit of dissociable discrimination adopted at first instance and by the Court of Appeal was too wide particularly in regards to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation (although maybe not on the basis of political belief).
3. The original findings may have breached the Ashers Art 9 and 10 rights because they placed them under financial penalty if they didnít print the cake.

I have long found Lady Hale a compelling jurist and as a result have changed my mind once again about whether or not the facts of this case amounted to dissociable discrimination. That said I think itís implicit in her judgement that dissociable discrimination is still discrimination and will continue to fall foul of the law.

Moreover I donít necessarily agree that there would have been breaches of Art 9 and 10 of the ECHR but Iím no expert on convention rights.

Iíll read Lord Manceís judgement later this evening.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 04:54:43 PM by David McKeown »

Dire Ear

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #541 on: October 10, 2018, 05:07:12 PM »
By the way, have Sesame Street declared that bert and ernie are in fact gay? If not, then they should sue yer man for character assassination
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/bert-ernie-are-gay-couple-sesame-street-writer-claims-n910701

Jim Bob

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #542 on: October 10, 2018, 05:59:56 PM »
Iíve read Lady Haleís judgement now and a couple of things occur to me.

1.  Iíve confused dissociable discrimination and indirect discrimination above.
2. The remit of dissociable discrimination adopted at first instance and by the Court of Appeal was too wide particularly in regards to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation (although maybe not on the basis of political belief).
3. The original findings may have breached the Ashers Art 9 and 10 rights because they placed them under financial penalty if they didnít print the cake.

I have long found Lady Hale a compelling jurist and as a result have changed my mind once again about whether or not the facts of this case amounted to dissociable discrimination. That said I think itís implicit in her judgement that dissociable discrimination is still discrimination and will continue to fall foul of the law.

Moreover I donít necessarily agree that there would have been breaches of Art 9 and 10 of the ECHR but Iím no expert on convention rights.

Iíll read Lord Manceís judgement later this evening.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #543 on: October 10, 2018, 06:24:59 PM »
Iíve read Lady Haleís judgement now and a couple of things occur to me.

1.  Iíve confused dissociable discrimination and indirect discrimination above.
2. The remit of dissociable discrimination adopted at first instance and by the Court of Appeal was too wide particularly in regards to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation (although maybe not on the basis of political belief).
3. The original findings may have breached the Ashers Art 9 and 10 rights because they placed them under financial penalty if they didnít print the cake.

I have long found Lady Hale a compelling jurist and as a result have changed my mind once again about whether or not the facts of this case amounted to dissociable discrimination. That said I think itís implicit in her judgement that dissociable discrimination is still discrimination and will continue to fall foul of the law.

Moreover I donít necessarily agree that there would have been breaches of Art 9 and 10 of the ECHR but Iím no expert on convention rights.

Iíll read Lord Manceís judgement later this evening.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

Think how I felt writing it

Jim_Murphy_74

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #544 on: October 10, 2018, 07:15:43 PM »
I always thought this was pretty clear cut.

Refusing to serve someone for being gay is illegal.

Refusing to produce a cake supporting changing a particular law, not illegal.

Am I missing something?

/Jim.

Fiodoir Ard Mhacha

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #545 on: October 10, 2018, 07:17:40 PM »
Do you know what occurred to me after hearing the news today about our good Christian folk?

What a load of crud (insert any other four letter word you choose) religion is.

Just sayin'...
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Insane Bolt

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #546 on: October 10, 2018, 07:35:35 PM »
By the way, have Sesame Street declared that bert and ernie are in fact gay? If not, then they should sue yer man for character assassination

Apparently Bert and Ernie are fully paid up members of the UDP......not the DUP😜

armaghniac

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #547 on: October 10, 2018, 07:56:18 PM »
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor …ire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.
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Main Street

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #548 on: October 10, 2018, 08:03:41 PM »
I always thought this was pretty clear cut.

Refusing to serve someone for being gay is illegal.

Refusing to produce a cake supporting changing a particular law, not illegal.

Am I missing something?

/Jim.
It's that simple  and now that it has been explained by the supreme court judges you'd wonder why it took so long. I was aware that an individual employee  could conscientiously object to work on such a political/social slogan without censure from the employer but I wasn't too sure about the bakery as a business entity having the civil right to conscientiously object based on the same objections.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 09:10:24 PM by Main Street »

BennyCake

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #549 on: October 10, 2018, 09:04:53 PM »
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor …ire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

Yup, my thinking too

trileacman

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #550 on: October 10, 2018, 09:14:14 PM »
I've studied this a bit further and had another thought.

Say you work for Ashers and someone comes in and orders a "leave the EU" cake, can you, as an employee, refuse to bake the cake at the owners request on the grounds it's objectionable to your political beliefs? If you get fired for your stance do you then have grounds for unfair dismissal?
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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #551 on: October 10, 2018, 09:19:27 PM »
I've studied this a bit further and had another thought.

Say you work for Ashers and someone comes in and orders a "leave the EU" cake, can you, as an employee, refuse to bake the cake at the owners request on the grounds it's objectionable to your political beliefs? If you get fired for your stance do you then have grounds for unfair dismissal?
You didnít adhere to company policy. We tell you what to bake, with our ingredients, on our time and with our name stamped on the box. Thatís what we pay you to do. Nothing else.


tonto1888

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #552 on: October 10, 2018, 09:27:37 PM »
Proper order. Someone should not expect others to subscribe to their sordid political campaigns. If this case had not rightly been thrown out you would have had people going to Larne getting Saor …ire cakes and  others going to Carrickmore looking for Ulster is British cakes.

What exactly is sordid about it?

David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #553 on: October 10, 2018, 10:02:46 PM »
Itís definitely not simple. The Supreme Court overturned the lower courts on the basis that they had to wide a definition for dissociable discrimination (which Iíve incorrectly referred to above as indirect discrimination). Particularly in this instance where the Supreme Court held people who are not gay may request such a slogan on a cake in order to support friends or family who are. In which case you canít say that those wanting such a slogan on a cake will always or almost always be members of protected class. Annoyingly though the court stopped well short of explaining exactly how wide the definition should be using a very narrow definition as an example as opposed to an explanation. To me that begs the question what if Mr Lee has requested a picture of himself with the words ďproud to be gayĒ. Itís not clear to me from the judgement if a refusal by Ashers to make such a cake would have been discriminatory.

This is further compounded by the judgement suggesting the definition of dissociable descrimination may be wider for political opinion but again failing to define its width.

Finally the judgement discussed how Ashers may not have breached discrimination legislation relating to political opinion because of their own convention rights but it remains silent on whether or not the same protections would have been available had they considered discrimination legislation relating to sexual orientation which is made against a different legislative framework.

All in all I have to say I thought it was a particularly interesting case with potentially very wide ramifications.

After reading it Iím still stuck on the point I made near the start of this thread.

Refusing to provide a service to someone simply because they are a member of a protected class is wrong.

Refusing to make or sell a product but of the nature of that product is not. For example halal food.

Refusing to provide a service that is almost exclusively only going to be requested by members of a protected class is still somewhat of a grey area.

 

Main Street

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #554 on: October 10, 2018, 10:08:22 PM »
I've studied this a bit further and had another thought.

Say you work for Ashers and someone comes in and orders a "leave the EU" cake, can you, as an employee, refuse to bake the cake at the owners request on the grounds it's objectionable to your political beliefs? If you get fired for your stance do you then have grounds for unfair dismissal?
You didnít adhere to company policy. We tell you what to bake, with our ingredients, on our time and with our name stamped on the box. Thatís what we pay you to do. Nothing else.
The issue is not as black and white as the simplistic scenario you paint. If the employee is well known to be an avowed remainer and the employer is known to be supporting brexit,  then what's your interpretation? perhaps a deliberate attempt to provoke?
 to humiliate?  that's discrimination, both are enough grounds to reinstate the employee or/and exact damages.

This cake slogan was not just an innocent approach, it was a deliberate attempt to provoke people who were already well known to hold deep beliefs to the contrary.