Sean Brady Steps Down

[Hardy]

2 seperate issues Zip. Tony and his nonsensical defending of what Brady and the Church did, or didn't do, to stop the abuse is the first issue. The second issue is the carry on over is there a God or not. Those discussions are even more pointless than the other one at this stage.

  Actually I thought I was getting somewhere last night in discussing (an aspect of) the god question with Tony. I thought we had a relatively civilised discussion for a change. I got an insight into his thinking (he believes because he has to because he's afraid of being damned if he doesn't and so he is impervious to all logical refutations of the claims of religion, however outlandish).

I don't see why such a discussion should be off limits, provided it's conducted with a modicum of respect. As regards Iceman's complaints about bullying of Tony, the man himself didn't seem to have any problem with the most recent discussion. To flog a cliché, Iceman seems to be confusing reluctance to accept catholic dogma with an attack on his religion. The fact that you're not prepared to discuss doesn't give you the right to ban discussion. "The freedom to criticise ideas, any ideas – even if they are sincerely held beliefs – is one of the fundamental freedoms of society."

That's not my case at all hardy. We are talking about two seperate discussions. Sean Brady and God does exist.
I believe in God and I worship God through the Catholic Church. I don't support Sean Brady.

I don't like Tony. He is half of the problem most times. But I don't like the axe grinders ganging up on him either.
We've flogged the debates to death on religion and Catholicism and doctrine. We go around in circles. I'm not prepared to discuss? I've discussed more on the topic for the Catholic/God side than anyone else.
Your quote is very conveniently used. I like it. I respect it and I agree with it. I disagree with the bully tactics. I'm not saying it's you personally but collectively there is a fair few lads firing the same old questions at Tony. Axes ground again...

On reflection, I think I went over the ball, studs up there, Iceman. I was wrong to suggest you're not prepared to discuss. Apologies.

[mylestheslasher]

Exactly.Do I detect that the non believers while trying all they know to ridicule any belief in God have just this tiny little bit of a nagging doubt at the back of their minds,that little voice that won't go away that keeps saying "What if I'm wrong?"

Yes I often ask myself could Tony be right and Sean Brady is a great man, there is a God and the catholic church is a powerful force for good. I normally resolve by saying this out loud and concluding that it is a pile of dog poo.

[LCohen]

It all boils down to this.Do you believe Jesus existed,was crucified, and then rose from the dead? If you do that is surely irrefutable proof of the existence of  God, if you don't then you need to ask yourself why this myth has been perpetuated for so long effectively conning billions of people for over two thousand years.

Blathering idiocy.

If I don't belive in the resurection story is that PROOF that god doesn't exist? Thats the inference of what you claim

[LCohen]

The Church must stay true to its beliefs which cannot change regardless of era or to court popularity.Its secular society who have turned their back on these beliefs in favour of the pursuit of materialism,hedonism etc.

I was baptised a catholic and educated in part through the catholic system. I do not believe in god and advocate a secular society. Why is it that you belive that I have chosen materialism or hedonism? In fact you should really only repeat this hedonistic/materialistic slim if you provide some evidence to support it.

[The Iceman]

We messed up? Surely if God created us, he's the one who messed up, since he created something capable of sin? What's more, even as he was in the act of creating us, he must've known that he was creating a sinful creature, since he's omniscient. And if he knew that he was creating a sinful creature, he also knew that he was creating many of us to burn in eternal hell fire, no? And if he knew that, why did he continue? Why create mankind when he must've known that many of his 'children' would end up in hell?

Being all knowing and all controlling are two different things Myles. God created us. He didn't create us to be evil or to sin. That's on us. We have the ability (through free will) to choose Him or reject Him. To love him sincerely or out of fear or not at all. Without free will we would just be machines. Not humans. Even Satan cannot make us sin - he tempts us to sin but the choice is always ours.

Should God not have bothered at all knowing that some people would choose sin and choose hell? Is that what you are asking?

Do you know why God created the world? Or what the Church teaches or what Catholics believe?
That the world was created to show every aspect of God's character fully. His loving kindness, His creative Power, His justice, His mercy, His wrath...

I sometimes think you ask the questions without thinking about them and what the response might be.

[LCohen]

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-purgatory-in-the-bible

The basis of catholic belief in purgatory.

Why cannot people who don't believe not tolerate if not respect the opinions of those who do? What niggles those who react ferociously against believers? Could it be they are just not 100% convinced about their atheism?

The more realistic explantaion is the following. An atheist is probably quite happy for others to belive whatever they like but when believers start to act on their beliefs in a way that negatively impacts on them personally or society as they say see it and do so based upon "belief" but offer no proof (or incredulous "proof") of what it is they believe then an atheist will probably pipe up at that stage. Thats certanly they way I operate.

[T Fearon]

But the Catholic Church was founded by God

[LCohen]

By living a good life,free as far as possible from sin, and believing, trusting that this will save you from such a horrendous fate.No other approach (certainly not discounting its possibility or ignoring it completely) would keep me sane.

It seems you also "believe" in your own sanity. What evidence for this have you?

[LCohen]

That's wishful thinking,what if it is true,and you have not prepared? Why take the risk? Any form of bearable torment that has a finite ending is easier to contemplate than eternal torment.

Simply denying the possibility of something scary does not mean you avoid the actual scenario

What if you have wasted the only life tou will ever have preparing your self for the big nothing? Is that not the big risk in your MO?

[ONeill]

You're wrong. No you're wrong. You're wrong. No you're wrong. You're wrong. No you're wrong. You're wrong. No you're wrong. You're wrong. No you're wrong.

A good Mass would sort this out.

[Myles Na G.]

We messed up? Surely if God created us, he's the one who messed up, since he created something capable of sin? What's more, even as he was in the act of creating us, he must've known that he was creating a sinful creature, since he's omniscient. And if he knew that he was creating a sinful creature, he also knew that he was creating many of us to burn in eternal hell fire, no? And if he knew that, why did he continue? Why create mankind when he must've known that many of his 'children' would end up in hell?

Being all knowing and all controlling are two different things Myles. God created us. He didn't create us to be evil or to sin. That's on us. We have the ability (through free will) to choose Him or reject Him. To love him sincerely or out of fear or not at all. Without free will we would just be machines. Not humans. Even Satan cannot make us sin - he tempts us to sin but the choice is always ours.

Should God not have bothered at all knowing that some people would choose sin and choose hell? Is that what you are asking?

Do you know why God created the world? Or what the Church teaches or what Catholics believe?
That the world was created to show every aspect of God's character fully. His loving kindness, His creative Power, His justice, His mercy, His wrath...

I sometimes think you ask the questions without thinking about them and what the response might be.

If he knows all things, he created us in the full knowledge that he was creating a flawed creature. He created us knowing that many of us were destined for eternal punishment. So why bother? If I leave a group of 6 year olds in a room containing bowls of sweets and chocolates, after telling them not to eat any, who's to blame if some of the kids can't resist temptation and end up eating a sweet or two? I could say that the kids have free will and chose to disobey me, but I don't think many people would support me if I decided to inflict a catastrophic punishment on those kids who 'sinned'.

[muppet]

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-purgatory-in-the-bible

The basis of catholic belief in purgatory.

Why cannot people who don't believe not tolerate if not respect the opinions of those who do? What niggles those who react ferociously against believers? Could it be they are just not 100% convinced about their atheism?

Why cannot people who don't believe not tolerate if not respect the opinions of those who don't? What niggles those who react ferociously against non-believers? Could it be they are just not 100% convinced about their atheism?

[muppet]

But the Catholic Church was founded by God

Any links?

[supersarsfields]

Best comparison is the relationship between an earthly father and son.There is a natural love there but punishment if the son does wrong,and the love grows as the years go by.

What sort of parent sends his son to hell for all eternity?

Feck I can barely get the to stay 2 mins on the naughty step.

[The Iceman]

We messed up? Surely if God created us, he's the one who messed up, since he created something capable of sin? What's more, even as he was in the act of creating us, he must've known that he was creating a sinful creature, since he's omniscient. And if he knew that he was creating a sinful creature, he also knew that he was creating many of us to burn in eternal hell fire, no? And if he knew that, why did he continue? Why create mankind when he must've known that many of his 'children' would end up in hell?

Being all knowing and all controlling are two different things Myles. God created us. He didn't create us to be evil or to sin. That's on us. We have the ability (through free will) to choose Him or reject Him. To love him sincerely or out of fear or not at all. Without free will we would just be machines. Not humans. Even Satan cannot make us sin - he tempts us to sin but the choice is always ours.

Should God not have bothered at all knowing that some people would choose sin and choose hell? Is that what you are asking?

Do you know why God created the world? Or what the Church teaches or what Catholics believe?
That the world was created to show every aspect of God's character fully. His loving kindness, His creative Power, His justice, His mercy, His wrath...

I sometimes think you ask the questions without thinking about them and what the response might be.

If he knows all things, he created us in the full knowledge that he was creating a flawed creature. He created us knowing that many of us were destined for eternal punishment. So why bother? If I leave a group of 6 year olds in a room containing bowls of sweets and chocolates, after telling them not to eat any, who's to blame if some of the kids can't resist temptation and end up eating a sweet or two? I could say that the kids have free will and chose to disobey me, but I don't think many people would support me if I decided to inflict a catastrophic punishment on those kids who 'sinned'.

You are over simplifying it for your own argument.  God isn't inflicting catastrophic punishment on 6 year-old's for eating sweets. We have multiple opportunities in our life to repent - until our last breath. There are many sins and they aren't all as appealing as a bowl of sweets - unless you are one of the few who enjoy killing.....