Down Club Hurling & Football

[T O Hare]

Mickey the legend at 45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutQSbL9c_o

[6th sam]

They used to start games in March. But season after season March's fixtures got wiped out by the weather - and refixtures are the main reason why seasons drag on. Starting in April with a flurry of fixtures before county commitments kick in makes more sense.

Can you back this statement up with evidence,wobbler?I played when leagues started in March,and pitches were not up to current standards of drainage and have no recollection of widespread cancellation of fixtures due to weather.Besides clubs seem to have no problem playing ulster leagues in february.

[supersub]

2nd to 6th sam i was about to post about the ulster leagues, how come its ok for these to go ahead the weather hasnt seem to affect them much. i dont see a problem with starting the leagues earlier!

[6th sam]

GREAT TO SEE A BIT OF DEBATE ON THIS AGAIN-IT OBVIOUSLY STILL REMAINS AN ISSUE.
AS ALWAYS WOBBLER YOUR OPINIONS ARE DIRECT AND INFORMATIVE.I INCLUDE MY REPLIES IN CAPITALS,I'M SURE THERE'S A BETTER WAY OF REPLYING TO POSTS BUT I HAVEN'T CRACKED IT YET!

I wouldn't go along with much of this.GOOD,AT LEAST YOU'RE NOT DISMISSING IT ALL

2. Rigid unchangeable fixture dates and times.
This just isn't a nice suggestion. Club footballers, especially those at the higher end of things, give a huge amount of the best years of their life in service of their club. Most of them will, during that time, pick up a wee lady and get married. If his bride is anything like most brides, she'll want a summer wedding, preferably on a Friday. Having spent so many years training with a group of fellas, it's only natural that they'll be invited to the party. Forcing clubs to fulfil fixtures in these situations is horrible and unnecessary. It goes against the ethos of the organisation.WEDDING PROBLEM EASILY SOLVED -IF CLUBS CAN PROVE THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THEIR PLAYERS ARE ATTENDING THE WHOLE WEDDING,THEY SHOULD APPLY TO THE COUNTY BOARD AT LEAST 5 WEEKS IN ADVANCE FOR A REFIXTURE ON A MONDAY NIGHT.MY DEMAND FOR A RIGID FIXTURE LIST IS INTENDED TO HELP MARRIED PLAYERS/MENTORS.I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE HERE-FIXTURE UNPREDICTABILITY IS NOT FAMILY FRIENDLY,AND  CAN BE IMPROVED UPON.

Secondly, it is almost inconceivable that over the course of a season at least one set of fixtures will not be wiped out to due to bad weather, county commitments or club championship commitments, replays etc, or deaths of important Gaels. AGREED,THE SYSTEM SHOULD ALLOW FOR OCCASIONAL FIXTURE CANCELLATION,BUT APART FROM COUNTY COMMITTMENTS I CAN  RECALL VERY FEW OCCASIONS OVER THE PAST NUMBER OF YEARS WHEN A WHOLE SERIES HAS BEEN CANCELLED.

3. No more than 1 game a week.
I believe this is the path Sean Rooney tried to take this season, and as a result, we'll be playing games til December. During late April and May, when the evenings are long enough and the pitches are firm enough, playing one week with 2 games and one week with one game would be perfectly acceptable to most players - and would alleviate so much fixture deadlock.AGREED,AN OCCASIONAL EXTRA FIXTURE ON A MONDAY IS ACCEPTABLE 4 MATCHES IN 10 DAYS,OR MULTIPLE MONDAY FIXTURES IS NOT.

4. games for all clubs most weekends in September.
This will never happen when the Down championship is compressed. It's isn't feasible. Personally I prefer the compressed format, although I can see purpose in arguments against it. Either way you'll have begrudgers.CAN BE DONE:WK1 LEAGUE ,WK 2CHAMP,WK3 LEAGUE ,WK4CHAMP.CLUBS CAN APPLY TO HAVE THEIR LEAGUE FIXTURES FOR AI WEEKEND BROUGHT FORWARD TO A MONDAY IN AUGUST.ALL MATCHES IN SEPT/OCT MAY HAVE BE PLAYED ON SATURDAYS-THIS HAPPENS ANYWAY IN OCTOBER.

5. clubs must accept that leagues must proceed regardless of county committments
Every club I know of accepts the starred system is necessary evil. It's a superb system, don't f**k with it.THERE ARE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF THE STARRED SYSTEM WHICH CAN BE ABSORBED INTO NEW SYSTEM,BUT LET'S NOT PRETEND THE STARRED SYSTEM IS PERFECT.IT STILL PUTS TOO MUCH PRESSURE ON COUNTY PLAYERS AND THE FIXTURES SEC.PLAYOFFS IN NOVEMBER UNACCEPTABLY EATS INTO THE OFF SEASON OF COUNTY PLAYERS -AND WILL LONGER BE ALLOWED.THEREFORE OUR SYSTEM MUST CHANGE.

6. extended championship series,including B championship for 1st round losers.With championship status independent of league status.
Disagree with this entirely and completely. Nobody, anywhere, wants to play in a B Championship  FACTUALLY INCORRECT,MANY CLUBS WOULD PREFER TO BE PLAYING IN  B CHAMPIONSHIP AS OPPOSED TO TWIDDLING THEIR THUMBS WAITING ON THE NEXT AVAILABLE SLOT FOR A LEAGUE FIXTURE. all this would do is block off weekends that could be used for league football. WOULDN'T BLOCK OFF ANY ADDITIONAL WEEKENDS--LEAGUE FOOTBALL ALREADY GOES ON HOLD AS A HANDFUL OF CLUBS PLAY IN THE LATTER STAGES OF THE CHAMPOINSHIP.
The second point  I disagree with more. In Down, you work your way into Senior football, and your team is responsible for keeping that status. It isn't decided by back-patting in a boardroom. It isn't decided by out of touch committee members. WHO MENTIONED A BOARDROOM?
Am I wrong? Well, tell me how many teams from outside Division I have had an SFC run in the past 20 years. One, maybe two?MY POINT EXACTLY! League football is the single strongest indicator of how good your team is and where it belongs. DUNDRUM-IFC CONTENDERS WITH MCOMISKEY,MID-DIV 3 WITHOUT HIM.

10. current 4 round div 4 must be changed,it must be demoralising to those teams involved and will be further undermined if other clubs go down the road of annsboro and killyleagh.
I have no problem with Division IV being revamped, but not for the reasons you suggest. FOR WHAT REASONS THEN? Division IV is the bottom of the pile. Pretending it is otherwise is just a pile of liberal nonsense.STEADY! Teams aren't equal in this world, and clubs aren't equal in this world. If teams want to be treated more "equally", they should knuckle down on the training ground and force their way up the divisions. WOULDN'T MATTER HOW MUCH TRAINING YOU WOULD DO DIV 4 IS A NIGHTMARE-IT TOOK A GREAT CLUB LIKE ST JOHNS YEARS TO GET OUT OF IT!


 

[thewobbler]

Couple of random points back at you 6th Sam.

Nobody really cares if Ulster League fixtures get fulfilled or not. The Ulster league saves clubs the bother of sorting out friendlies and referees, but beyond that very few clubs would care if half their matches were postponed.

League series 1 and 2 were knocked out completely in 2001. I believe that is the last year we tried to start in March. Besides, the National League and the u21 Championship run in March and through half of April. Scheduling club games against these would only result in turmoil.

Two whole series this season have been wiped out by the weather. One in July, one in September.

Fixtures just shouldn't be scheduled for All-Ireland final weekend. Between the Kilmacud 7s and players going to Dublin for the weekend, match upon match ends up getting postponed.

In my experience the players enjoy Saturday fixtures, but they are generally watched by small crowds. You can't play early as it conflicts with work commitments, and playing late conflicts with a lot of social lives.


Trust me, If everything was done and dusted by the last week of September, there would be a series of motions at the next convention to extend the season. On a more worrying note, I guarantee that a lot of teams would begin their preparation for the next season by December. The players would want it, because after 2 full months off they'd be craving football.


I don't know which clubs you are talking about, but I've never met a player who willingly trained for a B championship.


This is my big point. If championship placings aren't decided by league form, then some arbitration will be required. Which means that out of touch men in boardrooms will rub each other's backs until they get the system and teams they want, rather than thinking of what is best for Down football.


Dundrum were never serious intermediate challengers, even with McComiskey playing. It is possible to get to a semi-final in any Championship without meeting a contender, but that's when the hard work starts.


St John's might be a great club, but until the past few years their underage teams have done diddly squat at every level. Some of their club members have got together and put this right over the past 5-6 years, and they're now getting their reward at senior level. I'd imagine they'll hold their own comfortably in Division III next year. This is the right way to do things.


The reason why I'd split Division IV up is because the amount of travelling required in that division is inverse to the prestige of playing in that division. It would be much easier for Killyleagh and Annsborough to summon up a squad of players each week if they didn't have to cut off work early and traipse and hour up the road to take a beating.

[6th sam]

Couple of random points back at you 6th Sam.

I'm sure neither of us have the time to get into tennis match arguments and counter arguments.
We'll just have to agree to differ on a number of the issues.
No offence intended but your opinions appear ultra-conservative to me.However, unfortunately they are probably representative of those that ultimately make the decisions.

There is a considerable body of opinion out there,however,that unlike yourself,feel that the current club structures in Down are not serving either our clubs or county teams as well as they could be.More importantly the current system does not meet the requirements of the new burnout rules.How do you propose we meet these burnout requirements?Specifically, how would you propose to guarantee to finish the leagues by the end of October,if we get a prolonged AI run?

[off the laces]

GREAT TO SEE A BIT OF DEBATE ON THIS AGAIN-IT OBVIOUSLY STILL REMAINS AN ISSUE.
AS ALWAYS WOBBLER YOUR OPINIONS ARE DIRECT AND INFORMATIVE.I INCLUDE MY REPLIES IN CAPITALS,I'M SURE THERE'S A BETTER WAY OF REPLYING TO POSTS BUT I HAVEN'T CRACKED IT YET!

I wouldn't go along with much of this.GOOD,AT LEAST YOU'RE NOT DISMISSING IT ALL

2. Rigid unchangeable fixture dates and times.
This just isn't a nice suggestion. Club footballers, especially those at the higher end of things, give a huge amount of the best years of their life in service of their club. Most of them will, during that time, pick up a wee lady and get married. If his bride is anything like most brides, she'll want a summer wedding, preferably on a Friday. Having spent so many years training with a group of fellas, it's only natural that they'll be invited to the party. Forcing clubs to fulfil fixtures in these situations is horrible and unnecessary. It goes against the ethos of the organisation.WEDDING PROBLEM EASILY SOLVED -IF CLUBS CAN PROVE THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THEIR PLAYERS ARE ATTENDING THE WHOLE WEDDING,THEY SHOULD APPLY TO THE COUNTY BOARD AT LEAST 5 WEEKS IN ADVANCE FOR A REFIXTURE ON A MONDAY NIGHT.MY DEMAND FOR A RIGID FIXTURE LIST IS INTENDED TO HELP MARRIED PLAYERS/MENTORS.I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE HERE-FIXTURE UNPREDICTABILITY IS NOT FAMILY FRIENDLY,AND  CAN BE IMPROVED UPON.
I would be in favour off this to many times this last number off years the missus/other plans have been messed up because of fixtures getting called off then re-fixed, puts alot of pressure on relationships and young parents.

Secondly, it is almost inconceivable that over the course of a season at least one set of fixtures will not be wiped out to due to bad weather, county commitments or club championship commitments, replays etc, or deaths of important Gaels. AGREED,THE SYSTEM SHOULD ALLOW FOR OCCASIONAL FIXTURE CANCELLATION,BUT APART FROM COUNTY COMMITTMENTS I CAN  RECALL VERY FEW OCCASIONS OVER THE PAST NUMBER OF YEARS WHEN A WHOLE SERIES HAS BEEN CANCELLED.

3. No more than 1 game a week.
I believe this is the path Sean Rooney tried to take this season, and as a result, we'll be playing games til December. During late April and May, when the evenings are long enough and the pitches are firm enough, playing one week with 2 games and one week with one game would be perfectly acceptable to most players - and would alleviate so much fixture deadlock.AGREED,AN OCCASIONAL EXTRA FIXTURE ON A MONDAY IS ACCEPTABLE 4 MATCHES IN 10 DAYS,OR MULTIPLE MONDAY FIXTURES IS NOT.Coming into the twlight of my football career injuries even wee niggles are getting harder to heal and taking longer to get over

4. games for all clubs most weekends in September.
This will never happen when the Down championship is compressed. It's isn't feasible. Personally I prefer the compressed format, although I can see purpose in arguments against it. Either way you'll have begrudgers.CAN BE DONE:WK1 LEAGUE ,WK 2CHAMP,WK3 LEAGUE ,WK4CHAMP.CLUBS CAN APPLY TO HAVE THEIR LEAGUE FIXTURES FOR AI WEEKEND BROUGHT FORWARD TO A MONDAY IN AUGUST.ALL MATCHES IN SEPT/OCT MAY HAVE BE PLAYED ON SATURDAYS-THIS HAPPENS ANYWAY IN OCTOBER.I have no gripe with football on saturdays just the timing 5 was perfect

5. clubs must accept that leagues must proceed regardless of county committments
Every club I know of accepts the starred system is necessary evil. It's a superb system, don't f**k with it.THERE ARE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF THE STARRED SYSTEM WHICH CAN BE ABSORBED INTO NEW SYSTEM,BUT LET'S NOT PRETEND THE STARRED SYSTEM IS PERFECT.IT STILL PUTS TOO MUCH PRESSURE ON COUNTY PLAYERS AND THE FIXTURES SEC.PLAYOFFS IN NOVEMBER UNACCEPTABLY EATS INTO THE OFF SEASON OF COUNTY PLAYERS -AND WILL LONGER BE ALLOWED.THEREFORE OUR SYSTEM MUST CHANGE.the starred system was good at the time but playing to christmas is not on, we need to re-charge, also i feel it is unfair to clubs who maybe have a couple of county players on the panel

6. extended championship series,including B championship for 1st round losers.With championship status independent of league status.
Disagree with this entirely and completely. Nobody, anywhere, wants to play in a B Championship  FACTUALLY INCORRECT,MANY CLUBS WOULD PREFER TO BE PLAYING IN  B CHAMPIONSHIP AS OPPOSED TO TWIDDLING THEIR THUMBS WAITING ON THE NEXT AVAILABLE SLOT FOR A LEAGUE FIXTURE. all this would do is block off weekends that could be used for league football. WOULDN'T BLOCK OFF ANY ADDITIONAL WEEKENDS--LEAGUE FOOTBALL ALREADY GOES ON HOLD AS A HANDFUL OF CLUBS PLAY IN THE LATTER STAGES OF THE CHAMPOINSHIP.
A "B" championship it may be but bringing silverware into any club brings supporters/young players/enthusisium back and promotes the club back into the area
The second point  I disagree with more. In Down, you work your way into Senior football, and your team is responsible for keeping that status. It isn't decided by back-patting in a boardroom. It isn't decided by out of touch committee members. WHO MENTIONED A BOARDROOM?By making the league and championship status different it means that both competitions will be played to an ending with meaning, not just teams getting safe then going through the motions fulfilling fixtures as senior football guarenteed for another season etc.
Am I wrong? Well, tell me how many teams from outside Division I have had an SFC run in the past 20 years. One, maybe two?MY POINT EXACTLY! League football is the single strongest indicator of how good your team is and where it belongs. DUNDRUM-IFC CONTENDERS WITH MCOMISKEY,MID-DIV 3 WITHOUT HIM.

10. current 4 round div 4 must be changed,it must be demoralising to those teams involved and will be further undermined if other clubs go down the road of annsboro and killyleagh.
I have no problem with Division IV being revamped, but not for the reasons you suggest. FOR WHAT REASONS THEN? Division IV is the bottom of the pile. Pretending it is otherwise is just a pile of liberal nonsense.STEADY! Teams aren't equal in this world, and clubs aren't equal in this world. If teams want to be treated more "equally", they should knuckle down on the training ground and force their way up the divisions. WOULDN'T MATTER HOW MUCH TRAINING YOU WOULD DO DIV 4 IS A NIGHTMARE-IT TOOK A GREAT CLUB LIKE ST JOHNS YEARS TO GET OUT OF IT!
Having got out off Div 4 i know what it takes, and what you need to get out off it, and what a relief it is to the club and all around when you do, it it is prob the easiest league to fall into but the hardest to get out off as the work and motivation needed can be draining at times


 

[maldini]

Predictions and views on Sundays IFC and Minor finals??

[6th sam]

Interesting to see the widely differing views of wobbler compared to myself and OTL.
Could this be that wobbler is from the GAA heartland of South Down, possibly unmarried,and enjoys a social life.
OTL and myself are from East Down ,where the GAA presence isn't as strong ,married with kids and therefore have less interest in GAA's impact on the social calender.

The fact of the matter is that despite our differing opinions ,we must all accept that the system has to change to accomodate the new burnout rules.We must also accept that a large swathe of the county which has traditionally produced county players, all urban areas, and also the success of our county senior team, appears to have suffered a decline under the current system.There is massive disquiet in those areas about the club structures and has been for years. This requires imaginative solutions.Rather than indulge in endless debate on the pros and cons of the current and any new system.Can anybody propose solutions for improving our club structures.

[No1]

So to sum it up, you two S*ul boys are under the thumb and can't get out of the house to play football whenever you like?

 

[6th sam]

So to sum it up, you two S*ul boys are under the thumb and can't get out of the house to play football whenever you like?

 

You've got it!

Seriously though No.1,apart from your previous desperate suggestion to cancel relegation this year,Any thoughts from the Shore,on solutions to fixtures.Particularly with relevance to Hurling committments etc.

[No1]

  To be perfectly honest I'd mostly agree with thewobbler, with the exception that I'd start the leagues a month earlier.  No play offs, 2 up and 2 down in 4 divisions of equal team numbers and that's it, problem solved.  

 Some teams may have nothing left to play for in the middle of the season but that is just the nature of a league, it is up to each club to improve and push for success every year.

WEDDING PROBLEM EASILY SOLVED -IF CLUBS CAN PROVE THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THEIR PLAYERS ARE ATTENDING THE WHOLE WEDDING,THEY SHOULD APPLY TO THE COUNTY BOARD AT LEAST 5 WEEKS IN ADVANCE FOR A REFIXTURE ON A MONDAY NIGHT.MY DEMAND FOR A RIGID FIXTURE LIST IS INTENDED TO HELP MARRIED PLAYERS/MENTORS.I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE HERE-FIXTURE UNPREDICTABILITY IS NOT FAMILY FRIENDLY,AND  CAN BE IMPROVED UPON.
I would be in favour off this to many times this last number off years the missus/other plans have been messed up because of fixtures getting called off then re-fixed, puts alot of pressure on relationships and young parents.

 Don't think this is a runner, too many clubs would take the piss and try and use it to thier advantage.  How do you prove a wedding?  Copy all the lads invitations and send them to the county board?    Some games simply have to be re-fixed and thats that.  Playing it on the following Monday night seems the only sensible option.

CAN BE DONE:WK1 LEAGUE ,WK 2CHAMP,WK3 LEAGUE ,WK4CHAMP.CLUBS CAN APPLY TO HAVE THEIR LEAGUE FIXTURES FOR AI WEEKEND BROUGHT FORWARD TO A MONDAY IN AUGUST.ALL MATCHES IN SEPT/OCT MAY HAVE BE PLAYED ON SATURDAYS-THIS HAPPENS ANYWAY IN OCTOBER.I have no gripe with football on saturdays just the timing 5 was perfect

 Most of that is fair enough, although I wouldn't have any Saturday games (just to keep soccer head guevara happy)!  No reason why the games can't be played on a Sunday.

Every club I know of accepts the starred system is necessary evil. It's a superb system, don't f**k with it.THERE ARE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF THE STARRED SYSTEM WHICH CAN BE ABSORBED INTO NEW SYSTEM,BUT LET'S NOT PRETEND THE STARRED SYSTEM IS PERFECT.IT STILL PUTS TOO MUCH PRESSURE ON COUNTY PLAYERS AND THE FIXTURES SEC.PLAYOFFS IN NOVEMBER UNACCEPTABLY EATS INTO THE OFF SEASON OF COUNTY PLAYERS -AND WILL LONGER BE ALLOWED.THEREFORE OUR SYSTEM MUST CHANGE.the starred system was good at the time but playing to christmas is not on, we need to re-charge, also i feel it is unfair to clubs who maybe have a couple of county players on the panel

 Starred system is the envy of many counties and should not be changed, regular club football is one thing our county board can boast about.  On a selfish note, it is also to the advantage of clubs like ours rather that clubs with 2 or 3 county players.

 A B championship is a definite no-no.  More games in a meaningless competition?  No way.  We already have SFC, IFC, JFC, PRFC and RFC, thats plenty.

 Division 4 should have as many teams as the other 3 divisions.  There should be no 'easy out'.  If that is the level a club finds itself at then they've gotta put the work in to get out.  We should know, we were there for long enough!  Mayobridge didn't need any re-structuring to get out and look what they have gone onto.  I know that is a best case scenario but they have proved that anything is possible.

 As for the hurling, I don't wanna start as I would be here for another 3 pages!

[thewobbler]

6th Sam, I truly wish I was allowed more of a social life.

Seriously though, I'm not a player these days except in the most direst of emergencies (and some would say that this was always the case).

But I train with the senior panel, and act as a rep for them when they need things done either with our committee or with the county board. Players approach me throughout the season about when our fixtures are, about what fixtures they would want moved, and about when they should book holidays.

Other clubs go through me a lot of the time when they want to reschedule. I can normally weigh up the pros and cons of switching a fixture straightaway, either at our request or at another club's request. There are certain clubs in Down who I will never do another favour for, but that's another matter.

So I'm in a pretty good position to know what the average player wants out of a season, if only based on the players of one club.

Secondly, I spent a year on the County Board - so I know all too well what they have to put up with. I've a better understanding than most of just how much effort it takes to run the excellent league programme we currently have, and I've a better understanding than most that change just won't happen for the sake of it - which is what a lot of these proposals effectively amount to. When you truly weigh up most of the demands that clubs have, most of them are purely selfish needs and don't think of the bigger picture.

[6th sam]

6th Sam, I truly wish I was allowed more of a social life.

Seriously though, I'm not a player these days except in the most direst of emergencies (and some would say that this was always the case).

But I train with the senior panel, and act as a rep for them when they need things done either with our committee or with the county board. Players approach me throughout the season about when our fixtures are, about what fixtures they would want moved, and about when they should book holidays.

Other clubs go through me a lot of the time when they want to reschedule. I can normally weigh up the pros and cons of switching a fixture straightaway, either at our request or at another club's request. There are certain clubs in Down who I will never do another favour for, but that's another matter.

So I'm in a pretty good position to know what the average player wants out of a season, if only based on the players of one club.

Secondly, I spent a year on the County Board - so I know all too well what they have to put up with. I've a better understanding than most of just how much effort it takes to run the excellent league programme we currently have, and I've a better understanding than most that change just won't happen for the sake of it - which is what a lot of these proposals effectively amount to. When you truly weigh up most of the demands that clubs have, most of them are purely selfish needs and don't think of the bigger picture.

I know your background Wobbler and No.1, and therefore would have alot of respect for your opinions. I'm sure you'll accept from previous posts that I don't have selfish concerns either,and my motivation is to improve the bigger picture.The core question is:HOW DO WE ENSURE CLUB FOOTBALL IS GUARANTEED TO FINISH BY THE END OF OCTOBER REGARDLESS OF THE COUNTY'S PROGRESS IN AI SERIES.In order to do this, some of the following will have to happen:no playoffs,once off playoff day,earlier season start,reduced numbers in each league,play each team only once,more saturday football or perhaps earlier matches on a sunday,more monday football(2 games per week),league goes ahead regardless of county committments(effectively an extension of the starred system).

[Fíor Gael]

On a completely different note, can any of our rule experts answer a wee question for me:
Are u-16 players (players who are not eligible to play u-16 football next season) allowed to play for reserves or seniors now that the u-16 season has ended?