Down Club Hurling & Football

[SunnyJim]

Splash why is it that hurling people always seem convinced that every Irish person will love playing hurling, if only they are exposed to it young enough?

You folks could do with taking a wee step back and accepting that choosing to be chased around a field by 15 people holding sticks, is not a natural human instinct.

It can of course become a normalised thought process if everyone else is at it. This is evident in Kilkenny, Waterford, other places.

But the idea that a single hour a week of a guest coach bumming and blowing about hurling, is going to somehow reverse those human instincts? No chance.

Be realistic.

Is that a serious comment or satire ?

[Be even better]

The wobbler on the wind up. Obviously hasn't watched much hurling but talking of instinct is chasing a pigs bladder for 60 mins or as in your area Wobbler where ye don't seem to differentiate between 60 and 90 minutes any more of a human instinct? I disagree with Splash on the school issue. Hurling has to grow organically. The new 3 or 4 underage clubs in Down need to be given help to establish and grow and by all means coach in their feeder schools but waste of resources going to other areas where there is no hurling.

[johnnycool]

Splash why is it that hurling people always seem convinced that every Irish person will love playing hurling, if only they are exposed to it young enough?

You folks could do with taking a wee step back and accepting that choosing to be chased around a field by 15 people holding sticks, is not a natural human instinct.

It can of course become a normalised thought process if everyone else is at it. This is evident in Kilkenny, Waterford, other places.

But the idea that a single hour a week of a guest coach bumming and blowing about hurling, is going to somehow reverse those human instincts? No chance.

Be realistic.

I don't think Splash even suggested that every kid will love hurling if they are exposed to it but they certainly won't if they aren't exposed to it.

There are moves to give kids exposure outside the traditional areas, heck Kilcoo primary school won the P7 INTO cup 2 years ago as well as the football one I believe and even Conor Laverty had a son playing on that team.

As one of the County "participation officers" (coaches) told me he was speaking to one of the other county coaches and ex count footballer from a club who currently don't have hurling and his son does love the Primary school hurling but "don't force the kid to choose" is how it was left and for me that's the biggest challenge.

At some point there will be pressure on kids to choose and from a county perspective we need to ensure that's as far down the line as possible, but it will happen, no doubt.

[thewobbler]

Splash why is it that hurling people always seem convinced that every Irish person will love playing hurling, if only they are exposed to it young enough?

You folks could do with taking a wee step back and accepting that choosing to be chased around a field by 15 people holding sticks, is not a natural human instinct.

It can of course become a normalised thought process if everyone else is at it. This is evident in Kilkenny, Waterford, other places.

But the idea that a single hour a week of a guest coach bumming and blowing about hurling, is going to somehow reverse those human instincts? No chance.

Be realistic.

Is that a serious comment or satire ?

It's not satire by any description I'm aware of.

——-

Look at what Splash is suggesting as a solution for Down hurling.

EVERY primary school.

It's a variation of the same thing Wexford have twice recently tried to shunt through Congress.

If hurling is to grow in our county it will be very slowly and very organically.

Forcing people to play the sport won't change that one iota.

All too many hurling people seem to struggle with this idea.

——-

Be Even Better.... There are men (and women) in every village in every country across this world who are utterly obsessed with forcing a pigskin into a net before their opponent. That's more than enough evidence to suggest it's a highly natural human instinct.

There are dozens of incarnations of games that enjoy a similar goalscoring concept, except they involve using sticks instead of body parts, and with nowhere near the same participation levels.

[Be even better]

Fair enough points there Wobbler but on this island of ours in particular the Celtic / Gaelic instinct has been to use stick and ball (historically all over the island in 2 distinct forms) with the ball alone documented as a more 'recent' thing over last couple of hundred years and historically nowhere near the game we have now. That being said we are all GAA people and the aim should be to promote our 2 games amongst our youth both male and female codes as best as we possibly can.

[SunnyJim]

If Gaelic was the natural human instinct we would have kids growing up in Japan kicking two pointers !!

Everything we do in life be it professional or in leisure is based on exposure.

The suggestion is to try expose it in PE for example, like we do almost every sport, that's simply what Splash said, not indoctrinated in every school.

No kids human instinct sends them down the path of being a doctor, accountant, joiner or Gaelic footballer. It's all based on what they like after they are exposed to something, be it by friends, family or places like school!

I agree with splash, there should be a drive as gaa people to let our kids play every Gaelic sport, hurling, football, ladies football, camogie and rounders!

What your describing around sports all over the world again is exposure from parents, friends, school, or like us it is based on the areas culture, it's not the kids "instincts".

[Truth hurts]

In the long run, our county board would benefit more from spending £60,000 annually on two full-time hurling coaches who visited the schools rather than wasting tens of thousands of pounds on excessive coaches for our intercounty teams. The GAA must take action about the number of individuals overseeing a 35-person squad.

[SunnyJim]

In the long run, our county board would benefit more from spending £60,000 annually on two full-time hurling coaches who visited the schools rather than wasting tens of thousands of pounds on excessive coaches for our intercounty teams. The GAA must take action about the number of individuals overseeing a 35-person squad.

Correct!! Dublin went from playing in the lower divisions to competing for Leinster hurling titles due to the positioning of development coaches in all the schools.

Their massive population made the success of it come around a lot quicker than any other county. They didn't get it due to kids just randomly deciding they wanted hurling, the county board was proactive.

[Splash]

Despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary, I'll give the Wobbler the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're genuinely curious, and not trying to get a snipe in at the small ball code and its followers.

Firstly, I never said every Irish person would adore hurling if only they were exposed to it from a young age. That's a quare statement. Where did you pull that from?

I said we should be making efforts to introduce hurling into the primary schools in the county.

As it stands, out of the half a million people living in County Down, only those that are  born into an area serviced by 14 established clubs will have the opportunity to play hurling. Doesn't seem like great exposure, does it?

I'm not for forcing footballers to drop the big ball and make them play hurling, as some seem to fear may be the case. I'm for giving people the opportunity to play hurling. I never understood why people were so offended and disturbed by that idea, and I hardly think I'll ever understand it now. Unless you would be able to explain it to me, Wobbler?

In my opinion, every child should have the opportunity to play both games- hurling and football. Will every person who lifts a hurl and drives a ball fall in love with it? No chance. Should they be denied the opportunity to play as a result of predetermined geography? Sounds ridiculous to me.

The most important thing is to give everybody the opportunity to play hurling and camogie. Not to win All Irelands, not to win Championships, not to replace football. To have the chance to play the game.

In regards to success though (because we all surely want to see Down win, or we wouldn't be here on this board), there are, no doubt, many talented hurlers out there, but we'll never know, because they'll never have the chance to try it.

Shamrock's best player was a Burren man.
Warrenpoint's most influential player is a Rostrevor man.
Ballyvarley's main man is a Glenn man.
Even one of Ballygalget's key players is a Downpatrick man.

There are no doubt people who could do great things for Down Hurling, but becuase they happen to live in an area that doesn't hurl, we will never see it.

And say what you will, that if people want it they can seek it out, but you know fine rightly that it isn't as simple as that. Some of Down's most promising young hurlers are from Carryduff. If Carryduff hadn't introduced hurling in 2003, do you think all the parents of those players would have took them into Bredagh or further into Belfast? I doubt it, somehow.

No one is forcing people to play hurling. It is about giving people an opportunity to play hurling. But you seem obsessed that a stick will be forced into people's hands, so I'm not sure if I can change your mind on that.

You seem particularly upset with the idea of introducing it to EVERY primary school, as you say.

Yes every school. How many primary schools are in County Down? I don't know, but it isn't exactly hard to do, is it? Would you prefer it kept confided to the schools on the southern tip of the Ards Peninsula? I'm not sure why the idea of hurling being spread has upset you to this extent. Nobody has asked you to personally visit each school and give hurling sessions. 

You said hurling should grow organically. I can't think of a much more organic way of doing so that planting the seeds of hurling development at a young age and watching it grow.

This clearly has upset you. I'm not sure why. It is a perfectly reasonable idea that hurling may grow and it should be more widespread.

In regards to you other point as to 'hurling folk choosing to be chased around with sticks' and this not being a 'natural human instinct,' but 'normalised in Kilkenny and Waterford.'

I'm sure this is just another jab and an attempt to try and provoke hurling folk, but once again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you genuinely are struggling to understand the game of hurling.

The idea of hitting a ball with a stick is in no way unique to the people of Munster, Kilkenny, and the Ards Peninsula.

Iterations of stick and ball games have been played across the world, by humans, for millennia.

Hurling, hockey, shinty, and bandy are probably the ones that spring to mind. But the Native Americans in North America have their own versions of stickball.  On the other side of the world, in India they have Gilli Danda. In Inner Mongolia, in China, you will find Beikou. In South America, the Native population were playing a game called Palin, which the Spanish colonialists noted was similar to the game Chueca that they had in Spain. If you travel to Athens, you can go to the museum and see Ancient Greek artwork, depicting the game of kerētízein, and other, archeological records show stick and ball games being played in Egypt, Persia, and Ethiopia, a long, long time ago. 

To try and infer that the act of striking a ball with a stick is no more human nature than trying to drive a ball with your boot, is misinformed, lacking awareness, and ignorant.

Although I'd be happy to, I'm not going to get into an anthropological discussion about where hurling came from, and the relation of stick and ball games to the human nature. That is not what this board is for. No one here wants to read that, and I highly doubt you're interested in engaging in such a discussion.

But to say to take to the field and get chased by 15 people with hurls, is not human instinct, demonstrates two things; firstly, you don't understand the game of hurling if you think it is being chased by 15 people, and secondly, you don't understand human nature. To suggest people are obsessed with forcing a pigskin into a goal, as opposed to a ball of leather and cork, and one is natural behaviour and one is absurd, is ridiculous. My dog will chase a sliotar if I puck it, and will similarly chase a football if given the opportunity. That would tell me it's a highly natural animalistic behaviour, as opposed to solely a human instinct.

To say the stick-equivalent of these games do not share the same participation levels, is a meaningless comment. It is more effort to craft an appropriate camán, and can be even more effort to learn how to use one to any great effect.

To try and paint hurling as some ludicrous, unnatural behaviour, whilst you post on the internet, is ironic.

To try and portray the people of Kilkenny and Waterford as being desensitised to unnatural behaviour, for partaking in Irish traditional and culture, is disrespectful.

Nobody mentioned a single hour a week of coaching from a guest 'bumming and blowing' as you so elegantly put it.  Freudian slip? Maybe this is the type of coaching you were exposed to, but I'd like to strive for something better.

I would like to assume, if it was done, it would be done properly, and at the very least, introduced in a PE type format, and ideally, in a format similar to that which Dublin used to get to the stage they are now at.

I wouldn't call that an attempt to reverse human instincts. I've heard some daft anti hurling rhetoric before- but to call it unnatural to human instinct is going to take some going to beat.

Im sure you're aware that football wasn't really a thing until 1884-1885, when the game was created to act as a Gaelic alternative to soccer and rugby. Of course, 'caid' and various forms of football have been played in Ireland for hundreds of years, but to pretend that they are the same as the modern game is foolish.

Of course, hurling has changed greatly over the years, and is not the game it was when it was played millennia ago. However, it seems to have a better tradition on this island than football, with the modern rules of football ironically being influenced by the previously established rules of hurling.

I am not going to bash football. I quite like it. I've had some great days following the Down Footballers, and some not so great ones. But to try and act as though it is the most natural of human behaviour, and the act of anyone picking up a hurl could place it under threat, is a wild statement to make.

To try and chastise hurling people, ordering they 'take a wee step back,' and 'accept hurling is not a natural human instinct,' is a quare take. What do you think gives you the right to tell hurling people to know their place?

It's been 32 years since Down won an All Ireland. Which is sickening. But it's not like the footballers are in much of a better position than the hurlers as of late. Granted they won the Tailteann Cup, but the hurlers won the Christy Ring in that space of time, too.

At the end of the day, Down are Division 1 in the hurling, and Division 3 in the football. Even if you want to say Div 1B is a second division, that's still a level above the footballers at the moment.

Do you think that by denying people the privilege and the opportunity to play hurling, Down are going to win the Sam Maguire this year as a result?

Your own club has a proud camogie tradition, and has produced some fine camogs. I would be proud of all that they have achieved, including winning the Intermediate Championship this year. I wouldn't be slagging it off as unnatural behaviour.

I'm not sure why the idea of giving more people the opportunity to play hurling has upset you so much, Wobbler. I assume that maybe it's just one of those days.

Nobody is trying to force you to either play hurling, or enforce it, but I don't see why you think you should deny others the opportunity to be involved with it.

I would highly recommend you travel to Ballycran on Sunday to support the Down hurlers against Wexford. You may see how much hurling means to some people in County Down. I understand that Ballycran is a bit of a trek, and it all likelihood Down will get well beat.

Down will play Antrim in Páirc Esler on the 21st of March. It should be a competitive game and Down really do have a chance to win. It is our biggest hurling rivalry, too, if we're being honest. I'd highly suggest you go down for an hour to not only support the county in a local derby, but to see the work that is put in, to see the skill of some of our hurlers, and to see how much it means to the hurling people of An Dún. You'd be more than welcome.

And don't take that as someone trying to force you to enjoy hurling or indoctrinate you or demand you fall in love with the game. No one is trying to force your conversion to a hurling-supporter.

But I fail to see why you think we should be denying other people the opportunity to hurl, and why effort should be spent trying to stop those who are looking to grow the game and develop hurling in Down.

[Splash]

I understand that that is a fair bit longer than your average post, and it probably won't be read.

But I hope that it can answer the Wobbler's question as to why hurling people are into hurling. 

[Hard2Listen2]

I understand that that is a fair bit longer than your average post, and it probably won't be read.

But I hope that it can answer the Wobbler's question as to why hurling people are into hurling. 

100%. He lost me after a couple of lines!!

Need to be more concise Mr Splash!

😎

[thewobbler]

Thanks for the detailed reply Splash. Genuinely I'm not trying to wind our hurling fraternity up. Well, maybe only a little!

But I would explain that anytime I encounter suggestions for "forced" hurling, it does light a little fire inside me. You're very careful above to propose that what you would like to see is in no way compulsory, in no way forced through. So I'll not refer to it in those terms again, only to say that I still cannot help  interpreting "every primary school" as something that would require a dogmatic approach pressed hard from on high. It would require a stick, per se, rather than a carrot.

Why does this light a fire inside me?

Well I'll explain it from my current perspective. I'm entering my third consecutive season of under-14 football coaching. In that time I've worked with upwards on 60 boys across every ability range, from 5 distinct school years, the vast majority of them having started school life in Ballyholland PS.

Of those young players, north of 50 of them play competitive soccer.

Bear in mind these things. They don't get exposed to soccer in their primary school.  For the overwhelming majority of them, the same applies in post primary school. There are as good as no soccer facilities for them in Newry: all the clubs lean on GAA school AstroTurf for training. Even our biggest and most successful teams, with the exception of Newry City, have no club rooms for younger players. Every Saturday morning in life there's a procession of Newry parents heading to Lisburn, Belfast, Moira, Crumlin and Craigavon to play matches against teams of lads from many miles away, who they don't know, and as such don't have anything approaching a rivalry / bragging rights. Every season it seems half or more of them change clubs, often for a lesser challenge / guaranteed spot in a team. I've watched first hand that some of the coaching is very good, but game day messages, well they almost invariably applaud getting rid of it. Personally I find it hard to applaud a young lad for kicking a ball over a sideline but I'd guess my feelings on soccer are similar to yours on Gaelic Football; I do enjoy it but not that much. 

And to top all that, as a predominantly winter sport, they play most of their season in awful weather on heavy pitches.

Yet despite all these disadvantages (for boys in the Newry area), the lure of soccer actually seems to be growing year on year, even among the rural fringes where clubs like ourselves, Saval, Glenn, Drumgath are the cornerstones of the community.

So much so that we are a point that I would expect over half of the lads I've worked with would pick soccer every single day over Gaelic Football.

And while not ignoring the fact that the bright lights and marketing of the Premier League play a significant role, I fundamentally believe this growth is being driven by families. Parental influence is key.

Hence, I understand and even admire your determination that hurling can and will grow across our County with a sustained effort on influencing /recruiting players at a young age. But if Gaelic Football - even with all the advantages we've created for ourselves in these areas over the past 100 years -  finds it difficult to secure the hearts and minds of these young people, then the sceptic in me, just can't see it being the springboard for hurling that you can see.

Mainly because if parents aren't interested in hurling, then their children are unlikely to give the game the focus required to being them up to (anywhere near) the level of those who come from hurling families.

Even though it initially seems back to front, if you really want to change the culture of hurling in Down it has to be to find ways to cajole, snare, interest young parents and those about to become parents. Then the children have a half a chance.

——

Footnote 1: By adulthood, soccer is a hobby and Gaelic Games are a vocation. But our sports are becoming more vocational at an earlier age these days, which means may kids are naturally going to sway against, and I acknowledge I'm part of this problem.

Footnote 2: Gaelic football has two extraordinary advantages over soccer in the Newry area. The first being that we enjoy a summer sport, which far from guarantees the weather but it's miles above what soccer goes through. The second being that we provide proper home matches in the heart of our communities. It's a stepping stone for young lads to become important parts of their community.

This season our clubs have approved a calendar that sees under-14 football taking place every other week. Which means one home game a month over the summer for all these young lads. They might as well go to Lisburn every week.

Somebody please make sense of why this is happening, for I can't.

[Truth hurts]

Thanks for the detailed reply Splash. Genuinely I'm not trying to wind our hurling fraternity up. Well, maybe only a little!

But I would explain that anytime I encounter suggestions for "forced" hurling, it does light a little fire inside me. You're very careful above to propose that what you would like to see is in no way compulsory, in no way forced through. So I'll not refer to it in those terms again, only to say that I still cannot help  interpreting "every primary school" as something that would require a dogmatic approach pressed hard from on high. It would require a stick, per se, rather than a carrot.

Why does this light a fire inside me?

Well I'll explain it from my current perspective. I'm entering my third consecutive season of under-14 football coaching. In that time I've worked with upwards on 60 boys across every ability range, from 5 distinct school years, the vast majority of them having started school life in Ballyholland PS.

Of those young players, north of 50 of them play competitive soccer.

Bear in mind these things. They don't get exposed to soccer in their primary school.  For the overwhelming majority of them, the same applies in post primary school. There are as good as no soccer facilities for them in Newry: all the clubs lean on GAA school AstroTurf for training. Even our biggest and most successful teams, with the exception of Newry City, have no club rooms for younger players. Every Saturday morning in life there's a procession of Newry parents heading to Lisburn, Belfast, Moira, Crumlin and Craigavon to play matches against teams of lads from many miles away, who they don't know, and as such don't have anything approaching a rivalry / bragging rights. Every season it seems half or more of them change clubs, often for a lesser challenge / guaranteed spot in a team. I've watched first hand that some of the coaching is very good, but game day messages, well they almost invariably applaud getting rid of it. Personally I find it hard to applaud a young lad for kicking a ball over a sideline but I'd guess my feelings on soccer are similar to yours on Gaelic Football; I do enjoy it but not that much. 

And to top all that, as a predominantly winter sport, they play most of their season in awful weather on heavy pitches.

Yet despite all these disadvantages (for boys in the Newry area), the lure of soccer actually seems to be growing year on year, even among the rural fringes where clubs like ourselves, Saval, Glenn, Drumgath are the cornerstones of the community.

So much so that we are a point that I would expect over half of the lads I've worked with would pick soccer every single day over Gaelic Football.

And while not ignoring the fact that the bright lights and marketing of the Premier League play a significant role, I fundamentally believe this growth is being driven by families. Parental influence is key.

Hence, I understand and even admire your determination that hurling can and will grow across our County with a sustained effort on influencing /recruiting players at a young age. But if Gaelic Football - even with all the advantages we've created for ourselves in these areas over the past 100 years -  finds it difficult to secure the hearts and minds of these young people, then the sceptic in me, just can't see it being the springboard for hurling that you can see.

Mainly because if parents aren't interested in hurling, then their children are unlikely to give the game the focus required to being them up to (anywhere near) the level of those who come from hurling families.

Even though it initially seems back to front, if you really want to change the culture of hurling in Down it has to be to find ways to cajole, snare, interest young parents and those about to become parents. Then the children have a half a chance.

——

Footnote 1: By adulthood, soccer is a hobby and Gaelic Games are a vocation. But our sports are becoming more vocational at an earlier age these days, which means may kids are naturally going to sway against, and I acknowledge I'm part of this problem.

Footnote 2: Gaelic football has two extraordinary advantages over soccer in the Newry area. The first being that we enjoy a summer sport, which far from guarantees the weather but it's miles above what soccer goes through. The second being that we provide proper home matches in the heart of our communities. It's a stepping stone for young lads to become important parts of their community.

This season our clubs have approved a calendar that sees under-14 football taking place every other week. Which means one home game a month over the summer for all these young lads. They might as well go to Lisburn every week.

Somebody please make sense of why this is happening, for I can't.

I don't think that's correct when it comes to U14 football; isn't it every Sunday?

[clonian]

U14 football and U16 hurling on alternative Sundays.

[Truth hurts]

U14 football and U16 hurling on alternative Sundays.

You learn something new every day.