Down Club Hurling & Football

[redandblackareback]

well done to the three winners yesterday, shows down football is not as bad as everyone portrays. On the manager saga, Burns has been offered the job which is a crazy appointment but a cheap one, the problem now is he cannot get anyone to commit to a backroom team. 

[johnneycool]

Anyone get to read the letter sent out by Sean O'G in relation to the proposed changes in juvenile age grades for the next three years?

I believe the clubs are being asked to mandate their club reps to vote on it this Thursday evening, but there is very little detail in the letter and there are not many stats on this supposed drop out rate of 58% from age 12 to 22 and how much of that percentage is actual burnout and not just other attritional reasons.
Do we know the current Down drop out rate or how we are meant to know if this trial is a success or not after the three year period?

Not sure how this is meant to work either as there's the same amount of age groups and the introduction of an U15 team means that we've now three age groups impacted at exam time(15's, 17's and 19's) as opposed to the two currently.

Plus both East Down and South Down run either U13 or U12.5 teams in the latter months of the year anyway, so are the CCC going to put an end to this practice if they decide to run U12, U14's instead!!

[6th sam]

Anyone get to read the letter sent out by Sean O'G in relation to the proposed changes in juvenile age grades for the next three years?

I believe the clubs are being asked to mandate their club reps to vote on it this Thursday evening, but there is very little detail in the letter and there are not many stats on this supposed drop out rate of 58% from age 12 to 22 and how much of that percentage is actual burnout and not just other attritional reasons.
Do we know the current Down drop out rate or how we are meant to know if this trial is a success or not after the three year period?

Not sure how this is meant to work either as there's the same amount of age groups and the introduction of an U15 team means that we've now three age groups impacted at exam time(15's, 17's and 19's) as opposed to the two currently.

Plus both East Down and South Down run either U13 or U12.5 teams in the latter months of the year anyway, so are the CCC going to put an end to this practice if they decide to run U12, U14's instead!!

I think the introduction of an u19 age group has little value, not least try to find a playing window that doesn't impact on club senior teams, county, schools,colleges.
Perhaps tweaking with age groups could be of value , but only if preplanned, or perhaps retaining current age groups and staggering them with the new age group, eg 16s in March april , u17s June july( though logistically this would probably be difficult).
The strongest argument against parachuting in new age groups for teenagers , is that weaker players will miss out . Eg a "weaker" u15 this  year , who got little football at u16 level , would be looking forward to being an older/stronger u16 next year, however the proposed changes prevent that, and the risk is that he will lose interest. In short the proposed changes, if they occur immediately, are likely to increase dropout , if commenced at say u10 level, and eventually get thru to teenage groups it might be of benefit. Bottom line is that it's far too risky for us to experiment with untested proposals

[downup]

Can someone please explain what benefit these proposed changes are going to make to all stakeholders ie. players, clubs, county teams?

[Down Follower]

Ok so writing while thinking on these proposals.
Who/What will it impact negatively -
It will impact on the weaker player as outlined above, but only for one year.
There will be upheaval in the older age groups.  The traditional minor team is now gone - just disappears overnight. Will under 19 be seen as the replacement to this, or will it go the way of the under 21 and be a farce of a league. 
University goers have to come from for u19 training! That will be fun.
Clubs rely heavily on getting 2/3 new players out of minors each year.  This will now be delayed by another year as players will have to play under 19.  I foresee hard times ahead for reserve teams especially.
County/Club Ulster competitions.  Just makes it awkward to compete in these as the players are never at the one age group in that year.  So 2016 minors will be based on 2015 u17 players.  Cant see this being any benefit to our own County anyway.

What benefits are there.
IF (and thats a big IF), under 19's worked out as they hope, it would keep players on another year into their adult life and might reduce the traditional drop off that occurs after minor football.
I think thats the only benefit that would come from the change and its certainly not a given - oh and the county gets £5k. 

Too much doubt surrounds actual reason for change and £5k is not enough to offset that doubt for me. For that reason  - I'm Out.

[thewobbler]

Can someone please explain what benefit these proposed changes are going to make to all stakeholders ie. players, clubs, county teams?

Ultimately, participation numbers is the key marker of a sport's health. So like all sports, the GAA has an important task in minimising player burnout and drop-outs.

Somebody somewhere has put forward a case that that the longstanding age group brackets is a likely cause of player drop-outs. Nobody* can actually prove or disprove this theory until the water is tested, so in the time-honoured fashion of economic experiments, a sweetener has been put on the table for any counties that will dip their toes.

When setting this process in motion, personally I don't believe that central council, Down GAA or our clubs realised just how havoc it would cause for the group of players who should have been in their last year of minors.

---

* When I say nobody, in all honesty the theory is a crock of horse shit. There are three main reasons for player dropouts between the ages of 16 and 20 and none of them have anything to do with juvenile football.

1. Most clubs outside Dublin only have two or three adult teams, which means that if a youth structure is actually delivering players in abundance (8-10 per annum), they will also actually have nowhere to go. In any given week you cannot expect the majority of your adult players not to play, and that's what would happen if you had unusually strong player retention.

2. Ask 10 full-time students to travel home 2-3 times per week, all year round, for a local commitment. How many of them do you realistically expect to fulfil this request? So why would we expect GAA players to be any different, while simultaneously making it so difficult for them to transfer to another (university area) club while they are a student?

3. The most important one. Gaelic football is absolutely no fun to play unless you are physically fit, otherwise you will be exposed by just about any opponent. Maintaining physical fitness requires dedication, commitment and control. These are not things that come easily to the average teenager, and to a large amount of teenagers, will never come at all.

[wobbller]

Can someone please explain what benefit these proposed changes are going to make to all stakeholders ie. players, clubs, county teams?

Ultimately, participation numbers is the key marker of a sport's health. So like all sports, the GAA has an important task in minimising player burnout and drop-outs.

Somebody somewhere has put forward a case that that the longstanding age group brackets is a likely cause of player drop-outs. Nobody* can actually prove or disprove this theory until the water is tested, so in the time-honoured fashion of economic experiments, a sweetener has been put on the table for any counties that will dip their toes.

When setting this process in motion, personally I don't believe that central council, Down GAA or our clubs realised just how havoc it would cause for the group of players who should have been in their last year of minors.

---

* When I say nobody, in all honesty the theory is a crock of horse shit. There are three main reasons for player dropouts between the ages of 16 and 20 and none of them have anything to do with juvenile football.

1. Most clubs outside Dublin only have two or three adult teams, which means that if a youth structure is actually delivering players in abundance (8-10 per annum), they will also actually have nowhere to go. In any given week you cannot expect the majority of your adult players not to play, and that's what would happen if you had unusually strong player retention.

2. Ask 10 full-time students to travel home 2-3 times per week, all year round, for a local commitment. How many of them do you realistically expect to fulfil this request? So why would we expect GAA players to be any different, while simultaneously making it so difficult for them to transfer to another (university area) club while they are a student?

3. The most important one. Gaelic football is absolutely no fun to play unless you are physically fit, otherwise you will be exposed by just about any opponent. Maintaining physical fitness requires dedication, commitment and control. These are not things that come easily to the average teenager, and to a large amount of teenagers, will never come at all.

Have to agree with 6thSam and the wobbler-this is an experiment to see will children drop out of our games as much by introducing new age limits.The world has changed a lot and reading Paddy Heaney's Irish News column today it shows that it really is not the GAA's fault about drop-off-it's just the new world of instant info on smart phones and people not really caring about anything anyone. Depressing stuff. I'd love to hear the views of any Down poster under the age of 20 on here but this Forum would be all too "old hat" and boring for them.
    We've more chance of trying to keep the youth engaged in our games with the existing age-groups than we have by introducing some new and alien format to them and indeed to their parents and Coaches.

[johnneycool]

I think Down CB should set up an online survey for every juvenile player from the ages of 12 to 20, give them a unique ID, and ask each and every one then number of teams they play for (both codes), schools, universities, development squads, intercounty teams as well as club teams, numbers of weekly training sessions and repeat the exercise at the end of each year of the trial period and see how's dropped out and whether its related to burn out or over training.

Otherwise how are they and Croke Park going to know whether this project is a success or not (that's if we take the 5K, pretty paltry and all that it is).

I have to say I liked this line in the email;

"•   Are we just afraid of Change? Because change will ultimately happen in Under age Structures and here we have a chance to be innovators of change."

Is this some sort of quilt complex where we're not forward thinking to go for it.

For me I just don't see how these changes are going to address the issues they're meant to address, they're just window shopping, but the issue (if there is one) of burnout will still be there.

From a hurling perspective lack of fixtures throughout the year is a bigger issue with player drop out than too many as our U16's played their last league match back on the 5th of July and their one and only championship game at the end of August, that's the whole summer with no fixtures, burn out certainly wasn't the issue..

[johnneycool]

I think Down CB should set up an online survey for every juvenile player from the ages of 12 to 20, give them a unique ID, and ask each and every one then number of teams they play for (both codes), schools, universities, development squads, intercounty teams as well as club teams, numbers of weekly training sessions and repeat the exercise at the end of each year of the trial period and see how's dropped out and whether its related to burn out or over training.

Otherwise how are they and Croke Park going to know whether this project is a success or not (that's if we take the 5K, pretty paltry and all that it is).

I have to say I liked this line in the email;

"•   Are we just afraid of Change? Because change will ultimately happen in Under age Structures and here we have a chance to be innovators of change."

Is this some sort of quilt complex where we're not forward thinking to go for it.

For me I just don't see how these changes are going to address the issues they're meant to address, they're just window shopping, but the issue (if there is one) of burnout will still be there.

From a hurling perspective lack of fixtures throughout the year is a bigger issue with player drop out than too many as our U16's played their last league match back on the 5th of July and their one and only championship game at the end of August, that's the whole summer with no fixtures, burn out certainly wasn't the issue..

Will the proposed age-groups help in any way to solve the bizarre goings on in relation to the Mageean Cup where the Down Schools team's Semi-final wasn't  played because the Down Minor Hurling Final clashed in and around  the date of this Semi-final, the date of which was fixed around June time by the Ulster Colleges Council?
  6 TEAMS contested the MHC which began on AUGUST 19th and took 8 WEEKS to complete.

In that particular instance the left hand wasn't talking to the right as right in the middle of the minor club championship we had Down minor hurlers competing in the AI B championship meaning we'd championship games fixed for the wednesday night before the county minors playing on the saturday after, hence games were moved around plus Newry were also going well in the minor football and that wasn't messed about with at all!
Even the fixing for the final was right up to the last minute as on the thursday night a venue wasn't even secured for that Sunday.
So no, I can't see how the changing of the age groups can resolve a very much more fundamental issue of lack of a master fixtures list for underage hurling in Down.

[SHEEDY]

kilcoo v cross confirmed for newry, kilcoo won the toss.

[Predictor]

On the juvenile  age groups changing, i think its silly for a couple reasons
I'm 20 years old, i come from a smallish club and we struggle from time to time at underage with numbers already so this will make it worse

-Be hard for team with small numbers to field at U19 as of one away to uni( which means no games which will make other boys lose interest)
-Few senior teams may struggle when expecting a crowd of new young lads coming thru to strengthen the squad numbers

[EIREANNACH]

new proposals will be a disaster.

unless its done across the board its going to disadvantage the pilot guinea pig counties

and if after 3 years the GAA says ok right thanks guinea pigs, that its not for us, the road back will be as long

for that reason Down should vote a resounding NO

concentrate on getting our county set up to scratch

[C Carr]

I don't understand why Jackie Lynch hasn't been brought back onto the down set up, he suited the tactics Jim McCorry was trying to play and no doubt he will suit Eamon Burns' set up. No doubt he is in the top 3 midfielders in the county at this rate.

[elk]

I don't understand why Jackie Lynch hasn't been brought back onto the down set up, he suited the tactics Jim McCorry was trying to play and no doubt he will suit Eamon Burns' set up. No doubt he is in the top 3 midfielders in the county at this rate.

Not sure I have seen this lad play. What club does he play for, so I can watch out for him next season.

[Mourne Rover]

Jackie Lynch is a big, strong midfielder with Drumgath, who had a prolonged run for Down in both the league and championship under Ross Carr seven or eight years ago. He was worth a look but pace, as is usually the case when a player is asked to step up a grade, was a problem and very few people outside his own club would be expecting that he could feature again at county level.