Down Club Hurling & Football

[Mourne Rover]

We have a range of concerns after last night but it is also a simple fact that, going into the last game of division two, we are in a far better place than we could possibly have anticipated at the start of the season.

A win, or even quite possibly a draw, at home to Laois, will get us promoted and into a divisional final at Croke Park. If we needed any more incentive, the weekend's results have confirmed that Derry, Armagh and Fermanagh will all be in D2 next year and they are very likely to be joined by Tyrone and Cavan.

We have a choice between a second division which will be a watered down version of the Ulster championship, and a nightmare to escape from, or on taking the best teams in the country in the top league.

If we can put together a competitive midfield, which might involve Mallon joining Peter Turley, assuming Madine is still unavailable, we are more than capable of getting the result we need against Laois.

McKernan would probably need to revert to sweeper, with O'Hagan returning at corner back and Dee Turley coming into the half back line with McArdle, and a starting place in the half forwards for Mooney.

A major worry is that McKernan was the only starting forward to score from play last night, but any sort of a decent return from the rest of the attack next week will come close to getting us over the line.

We know what we need to do, we are on our own pitch and we can give ourselves a huge lift before the championship if we get things right.

[umpire]

Mourne Rover, if 3 bottom teams all win, and either Cavan or Meath win their game, down are up in Div 1 after losing their final game !!  Its possible.

[Mourne Rover]

Well worked out Umpire and you are quite right with your permutations. On the strength of their respective displays against us, it would still be very surprising if Westmeath beat Roscommon. However, if that happened,and there were no draws, a Galway win would put them level with us on eight points if we lose to Laois. We would go through on the head to head, finishing in second place, and the winners of Meath v Cavan would top the division. We seldom do things the easy win, but a win in Newry on Sunday would remove any need for the calculators.

[Brick Tamlin]

Saturday night's performance was as shite as I can remember in recent times. No amount of sugar coating or glossing over will hide the fact that the team and individual performances were not good enough. Its a fluke that we sit top of Div2 at present with a few stolen wins papering over the cracks. To say otherwise is just bullsh!t and delusional.

The line-ups are constantly confusing, players are playing in positions that baffle, sub-standard performances from 'seasoned' players mixed in with others that think they are still playing for their clubs lording it, all make for horrible viewing. And these aren't isolated occurrences. This is nearly every game we see this. Saturday night was a replica of the Roscommon game in terms of poor performance. Actually it was worse.

Kilcoo are to be admired for their recent success but there is no way on this earth they should have 6 or 7 men on the Down team together at the one time. All good footballers in their own right but no one club in Down is that good to contribute half the team. Ye wouldn't have seen it with Cross when they were at their peak and Kilcoo are no Cross.
Also a few of them tend to forget that certain behavioural traits don't wash at this level. The stuff that they get away with at domestic level doesn't count in this arena.
No amount of posturing, flexing or trash talking will intimidate 6ft2, 16st intercounty players.

Meath by their own admission wouldn't be in the higher echelons of teams in the country but the comedic ease with which their 'men' swatted aside our players was hard to watch at times. And to be fair a few men in red deserved it for the shite they were indulging in. Get on with playing football for Christ's sake. That's what matters most.

Observations:
- The kickout/retention issue wont go away anytime soon especially as we have a team full of runts. This is still a huge concern. No midfield partnership or settled pairing either contributes to this. We were wiped out in the middle completely both in the air and on the floor.
- Conor Garvey and O'Hagan are as sound a defender as we have yet they aren't near the pitch so im assuming both are injured. Both would add Physicality and experience.
- We kicked 7 balls into the keepers hands from scorable shots. Another day these will go over I suppose but its still way too high a number.
- We turned ball over too easy when we had possession ie Conor Maginnn 1st half springs to mind as well as Mallon & Devlin getting blocked down when tryn to shoot through a ruck of players.
- Multiple wides in first half cost us dear also, especially when we owned the ball for periods.
- Lateral hand passing back and forth across the pitch going nowhere fast whilst forwards live off scraps.
- One great move the length of the field finished with O'Hanlon nearly scoring a point just skimming the crossbar - this was the one memorable fluid move I remember the whole game.
- Impact of the bench wasn't the same as what it might have been in previous games. Not to harp back but if you were to spring a Benny Coulter from the bench with 15 to go it would fairly tighten the opposition defence. After all he was our best forward last year when it mattered and that was sometimes on one leg.

[Mourne Rover]

Brick, you may think that our performances have been dreadful this season, but we have actually won four league games out of six in a very tight division with a 100 per cent success rate on the road. Three of those four wins were the result of dominant final quarter displays, which is hardly a bad sign, and our overall record is our best in the league for the last five years.

The Roscommon and Meath games were very disappointing, and show how far we have to go,  but they need to be set against the progress which the likes of the Turleys, Howard, Devlin, Collins, Kane and McConville have made and the solid contributions from established figures like Laverty, McKernan and O'Hare.

You highlight our obvious problems at midfield without mentioning that Gordon, Rogers and King are not in the squad, while Fitzpatrick and Madine are recovering from knocks, which must stretch our resources.

You say you assume O'Hagan is injured, but everyone who was at the Cavan match will have seen how he pulled up with a hamstring while making a run, and McCorry has since gone out of his way to provide updates on his recovery in a series of interviews.

Garvey is a fine defender who struggled in our first match at Kildare, got a black card in the next fixture against Roscommon, and has been on the bench since then but will no doubt return.

There is little point in telling us that our subs have not been as effective as Coulter. We know that he was an outstanding forward but we also know that he has announced his retirement, so we have to concentrate on options who are actually available to us.

A win. probably a draw and possibly even a defeat in our last game will get us promoted, which leaves us in a better position than the other seven teams in our division, so feel free to let us know the team you would pick against Laois.

[Brick Tamlin]

MR im well aware of the bare facts in terms of wins etc but for me it papers over cracks. I could dig out stats that would also illustrate how bad we have been too if I had the inclination.
Look at the performances. Surely a cause for concern.
We beat Westmeath comfortably and played a bit. Apart from that we have been abject in the majority of games.
The Roscommon and Meath games were disappointing yes but don't forget the Galway game where we should been beaten out the gate and undeservedly stole the win, as well as the smash n grab in Kildare.

When I say that O'Hagan was assumed injured I meant that he hasn't recovered yet. Garvey needs to play. Accept that he plays on the edge and hasn't been at his best but his experience and physicality is needed at half back.
You speak about progress of all these players. They aren't new to the scene. Peter Turley is an experienced intercounty player now. Damian will be the same after this season and a run in the team. Howard has been there before too and isn't a newbie by any stretch, nor is McConville. A lot of the players have been on the panel for number of years and have been in around county squads. There are a very few who are new to it all so tell me another one.

There is a serious hero-worship on here with regards some players and its daft to say the least.
Some of them should stay out of the media and get on with doing their talkin on the field. They shouldn't be pre-occupied with whats said on social media and the likes. When they are whinging in papers and speaking out it just provides a platform for them to be shot at when it goes wrong. Cant abide by that stuff. Too many talking to media too often. Stay out of the papers ffs.

[Mourne Rover]

Brick, there was no hero worship in my post and no suggestion that the Turleys, Howard and McConville are new to the county squad. The point was how much they have improved this season, together with newcomers like Collins and Kane.

We have had mixed fortunes so far, and we need to improve, but it is nonsensical to claim that we have been abject in the majority of games when we are top of the league and within touching distance of promotion to division one.

The direct invitation, now that you have said we have players who are not good enough, is to let us know the team you would pick against Laois. Over to you, Brick.

[Brick Tamlin]

By what yardstick do you measure improvement for those players? Arthur never got a chance under wee james and now he has to a degree so he could only but improve. Jury still out to be fair as he has only recently started a few games. Kane is a newcomer so again its his baptismal year so don't know how you can say he has improved. Howard has been tried and tested before and is playing no better or worse than previously. He is being asked to play full back which is a big ask imho. How can you measure his improvement. Collins yes has done well and performances are decent to an extent and he is an addition to the squad. Turley is fighting a lone battle in there in midfield. You make the point of a marked improvement but by what do you judge this.

You say we have had mixed fortunes so far. Are you blind? We have had one fortune so far. Luck. Great to win games playing badly surely but open your eyes man. We are lucky not to be fighting off relegation based on performances.
Remind me in my rants where I stated we don't have players that are good enough.
What does my naming of a team prove?

[Mourne Rover]

To go through your points, Brick, it is wrong to say that McConville never got a chance under James. He actually played in several league games in 2012 and then went to the US the following year. Since his recall, he has been both scoring and making goals and looks a much more effective player. Kane made his debut in the McKenna Cup this year and took a while to settle but improved steadily and looked an outstanding keeper against Galway. Very few people who have attended all the league games would agree that Howard is no better and no worse than in previous seasons. He was formerly a fringe corner back who dropped out of the squad entirely and went travelling, and he is now a confident and physically stronger full back who has played in every game.  Dee Turley was never a regular until this year, while Peter Turley was twice replaced at midfield at half-time or earlier in last season's championship and since has become an automatic choice. Those are all clear examples of players on an upward curve.

As you ask when you criticised players, your recent posts have referred to individual displays which were `not good enough', `sub-standard performances from seasoned players', behaviour which does not `wash at this level',  how the way in which Meath `swatted aside' our players was hard to watch, how we have a `team full of runts', how Maginn lost possession and  how Mallon and Devlin got blocked while shooting through a ruck of opponents, and how players are `whinging in the papers.'

It is absolutely fair to say that our form has been mixed this season, but the table tells us that it has been better than anyone else in the division so far. You keep saying how poor we are, so you must surely be capable of identifying a team which could do a better job. If you don't, your arguments look weak.

[wobbller]

   I think this argument would be better timed to be discussed after next Sunday.

[lucan]

Why were the big men kept on the bench?

[Mourne Rover]

The discussion has actually been about what has happened so far this season, Wobbller. Getting promoted will not necessarily make us a better side than finishing in third place, although it is worth pursuing, and the question is really whether or not we are improving as we prepare for the championship. 

[whitegoodman]

I won't give a view on a team as I have already made my points clear on that but I will ask a few general questions.

- other than the Westmeanth game do people actually think Down have played well this year despite the points tally? IMO the three home performances have been as bad as I have seen in a long time including the championship match against Kildare last year.  The fact that we sit top of the league says more about how poor this division is rather than how good we have been.

- would you actually want to see Down promoted? We all want our team to win but I could see us being given some serious hiddings next year if we were in Div 1.  There can not be denying that we have had some serious luck this year and we could have already been relegated at this stage with 2 points only for that luck.

- do people actually see any progression at the minute or the makings of a championship team.  I mean would you be happy with the team that started on Sat starting in Derry in a few weeks time?

- Am I the only one who doesn't understand the continuous deployment of several players out of position despite viable alternatives being available.  At the minute we have one real scoring forward and when he isn't firing we are in trouble.  One of our other better score takers is being deployed at midfield and the other is being played as a sweeper.  Does this make sense??

[SHEEDY]

its alarming how easy teams are running through us, this hasnt been addressed. on saturday night we only had collins, howard and damian turley who i would describe as natural defenders. the rest are half forwards who are trying to be accommodated in the team by using them as defenders. we need people who enjoy defending because at the minute teams are getting countless goal chances against us.

my team if everyone is fit would be.
                       
                     kane

howard          mcardle     o'hagan

d turley          carr           garvey

          mallon           p turley

devlin             poland         r johnston/mooney/maginn

laverty            o'hare          mckernan

[Smurfy123]

I have to agree with brick and white.Where is the progression being made?Even thou we are going to get promoted I don't see where we have pushed on since James finished up.We are as bad defensively and as for midfield we are far worse of than we have ever been.As a forward unit yes we run about with all the tricks of the day but what exactly has our forwards scored from play this campaign?I would like to know those stats if anyone had them handy?(although Westmeath was a trimming).Has anyone any information as to the whereabouts of Dan Gordan and Ambrose Rodgers because we need both of them at 8-9 for the Derry game.