Down Club Hurling & Football

[PAULD123]

Kildare in the qualifiers. A lot better than playing Monaghan/Armagh.

I see Down listed first. Does this mean we will be at home for this match?

[Brick Tamlin]

That match yesterday will have told us nothing about Down we didn't already know.
There would be few if any lessons learned after that game.

Could someone enlighten me or answer me a few things about yesterday's setup?

Ambrose Rodgers comes on as a blood sub into the forward line for Mark Poland. This would make one assume he was close to starting or was maybe gonna be used at some stage of the game. Yet He never re-appeared for the rest of the game when subs were used, he doesn't get back on. Does anyone know why this would be. Was he injured, did he get injured in his brief cameo? Confusing I thought.

Eoin McCartan does not & cannot complete full training sessions for his club due to his history of injuries apparently. He doesn't regularly play for his club either im lead to believe. Burren heads on here correct me if im wrong. Can someone explain to me the justification for him being on the county panel let alone making an appearance. Here we have a player nearing 30 with a host of injury problems, who cant train or play consistently with his club but yet he tends to figure every summer in some shape or form for his county. And before anyone jumps at me this is not a personal attack or anti-McCartan in any shape or form. Im genuinely curious to know how this continually happens.

Good to see younger players getting a run out yesterday but question is will we see wholesale changes for Kildare game or are we no integrating these players into the team to actually use them? Are we merely paying lip service to panellists to give them a run and keep them on board and happy or are we seriously considering the likes of Donnelly & McCartan for Rooney, McArdle, Carr etc?
Imo Yesterday would have been perfect game to start the like of Conor Toner alongside Dan Gordon in midfield and give him a full match.  Maybe also give Doyle a full game if he is to be used down the line.

   

[forevergreen]

Have to agree with you Brick, Eoin is and always has been a dedicated lad but as you say, injury has deprived him of any type of sustainable training with either club or county.

I would be the first to laud his undoubtedd talent but with a long injury list and a distinct lack of general play time, he should not be on the panel. But he loves his football and given any opportunity to play for Down, he will take it. However we should be looking at other players who can do all the work and both learn and contribute to the future.

There are a lot of lads not getting game time and between general frustratuon and then being pushed out by players who have either not done the work or can't do the work, it is little wonder some. Of these subs are leaving the panel, add into that the fact that the 3 holiday makers will no doubt be in the reckoning for Kildare and there is a distinct possibility other panelists will also opt out.

Positives from yesterday apart from the result and conor laaverty being untouchable were the fact that Donnelly, O'Hagan, Ciaran McCartan and Conor Toner all seen game time, they are all great options for the future and hopefully will create a greater competition for places and therefore better performances all round, beginning with Kildare.

[Pangurban]

This Kildare game well tell us a lot about our place in the rankings. They have power,pace, and experience, and while they appear to have fallen back a little this year, probably due  the loss of a couple of their marque players, Doyle in particular, they are still a serious threat. Not a time for experimentation, we need our best team out, and that would not include Eoin Mc Cartan

[EagleLord]

Eaglelord if ye could explain all the 'bullshit' that Danny Savage (as an example) as gone through it might prove useful.
Some of us would also do well to remember whether we like it or not, a lot of players are on panels to be used as training cones and to push the others on, they will never feature heavily nor be used when it matters. Their function as part of the panel of players is to drive others to work harder and provide competition. If you don't want to be a training cone someone else will be. Might be harsh but its true.

Its beggar's believe that any player who is serious about being an intercounty footballer and wants to progress to the highest level and fulfil his potential on the biggest stage in our games, would book holidays for the peak season where the risk of a clash with games is a distinct possibility. The most dedicated of club players wouldn't do it imho.

I dont mean to single out Danny Savage as a player who has gone through bullshit. I dont know if he has or not, I merely used his name as an example as a young player we all love to watch, has a lot of talent but could easily step aside because of the fierce critisims and spotlight that is on a young fella playing county football.

[EagleLord]

That game on Sunday would have been an ideal game for a young lad like Danny Savage to play in as it turns out. They couldnt contain Laverty. The passing an moving between Downs forwards was fantastic, wee one-twos and quick lay-offs, great to see. No reason it cant be replicated against other, better teams. Having lightning quick runners, and thinkers is a huge asset. Laverty, Maginn, Poland, O'Hare, Savage would terrify defences with pure speed. If Poland stops carrying the ball into contact every time that is, and O'Hare contributes more to open play, rather than just frees.

[Brick Tamlin]

Wee bit harsh there on those players are ye not.
I don't think we will see Poland get blown for overcarryin 3 times the next game, not something he regularly does.
A lot of those forwards you listed are good and talented, but they are on the smaller weaker end of the scale too. A good big one is always better than a good wee one.
Don't like to see too many players of the same build lining out in the front 6. Or the back 6 for that matter.

[5 Sams]

Wee bit harsh there on those players are ye not.
I don't think we will see Poland get blown for overcarryin 3 times the next game, not something he regularly does.
A lot of those forwards you listed are good and talented, but they are on the smaller weaker end of the scale too. A good big one is always better than a good wee one.
Don't like to see too many players of the same build lining out in the front 6. Or the back 6 for that matter.

100% agree. I think that's where we lost the AI Final in 2010. Among our subs who came on the day were Conor Laverty and Conor Magin while Cork were able to spring Nicholas Murphy, Colm O'Neill and Graham Canty.

[speculative]

5 Sams, one of the reasons Down failed in AI Final 2010 is because they took off one of the smallest players on the field, Paul McComiskey and that we didn't vary our kickouts. Be under no illusions Cork's substitutes did not win the game for them, Down lost the game by not adapting in the 2nd half. We have to work with what we've got. We for some reason or another are not littered with big athletic skillful players. We can't start bringing in players who are not up to standard just because of their size.

All the aforementioned younger players are all well capable to make the step up, I think you could put Conleth O'Hare in there too, but were they realistically given a chance by management? During the league, the same substitutions were constantly used. You can say what you like about getting their chances in the McKenna Cup but we all know that isn't worth a damn. Players want to play, or at least feel they are getting a fair crack of the whip to claim their place and that doesn't happen with this Down team. So I for one couldn't blame them saying no to training 5 times a week, training weekends, drink bans, travelling all over the country for challenge games, etc. etc. just to get a seat on the bench week in week out when they could be playing for their clubs instead.

[ardtole]

Ross Carr took the big man approach to the extreme with limited results. Magic Johnson, Jackie Lynch, a few of the Leitriem lads as well spring to mind. McCartan took a totally new approach bringing in Poland to CHF and got team to an AIF from nowhere.

[Brick Tamlin]

A mixture of both is needed. You will win nothing with 6 forwards that are ultra skilful and fleet-footed but 5ft9 and lightweight.
Similarly you will win nothing with 6 forwards that are 6ft beasts but heavy hoofed. Im not advocating a big-man approach at all, really a balance has to be struck.
I just think we happen to have had a lot of the same type of player available to us for the last 10 years.

Players got their chance on sunday last to play 'competitive' championship football. But question is how many of them will start or feature significantly against Kildare?
Ye would hate to think that a Conor Toner or Ciaran McCartan is getting game time merely to keep them on board and away from the airport.

[NP 76]

If any player that is not willing to do the 5 nights training or the drink bans or the training weekends will never be any addition to a county set up. Lads must buy into the regime at the start of the year and give it a good rattle to improve themselves and the county if they are not willing to do this you are better off without them.unless they train all year round at that pace they will be nowhere near championship pace. An example of this is Costello who has been about a while trained hard and has got his chances and in my opinion did well. He also could of taken the easy option and threw the dummy out when he list his place in the league last year but he didn't he knuckled down and worked hard. I think boys throw the head to easy they think they are fit for county but don't actually want to work hard when they get there. They are happy to get the gear and prance about but won't roll the sleeves up and do a bit of work. Then it's easy for us to blame the management but yet we don't see what goes on at these sessions who is doing what.  I have saw bits of the training through out the the year and it's a hard slog. In my opinion that's the problem they are not willing to put the shoulder to the wheel yet the old hands who more than likely shop a lot of the blame when things go wrong are still giving 100%

[supersub]

If any player that is not willing to do the 5 nights training or the drink bans or the training weekends will never be any addition to a county set up. Lads must buy into the regime at the start of the year and give it a good rattle to improve themselves and the county if they are not willing to do this you are better off without them.unless they train all year round at that pace they will be nowhere near championship pace. An example of this is Costello who has been about a while trained hard and has got his chances and in my opinion did well. He also could of taken the easy option and threw the dummy out when he list his place in the league last year but he didn't he knuckled down and worked hard. I think boys throw the head to easy they think they are fit for county but don't actually want to work hard when they get there. They are happy to get the gear and prance about but won't roll the sleeves up and do a bit of work. Then it's easy for us to blame the management but yet we don't see what goes on at these sessions who is doing what.  I have saw bits of the training through out the the year and it's a hard slog. In my opinion that's the problem they are not willing to put the shoulder to the wheel yet the old hands who more than likely shop a lot of the blame when things go wrong are still giving 100%

I'll bring Dan Gordan into it here...one rule for one and another for everyone else or how does it work under your logic? Interested to know your view, not getting at you.

[NP 76]

I was getting more at the lads who year upon year come training at the start then as things get harder they leave the panel. Dan Gordon joining the panel was probably to do with the numbers being poor at training and James thought he could get enough out of him to get by. But I don't believe he will get up to championship pace after not playing any football in almost two years.

[speculative]

It's alright for a man like Costello who doesn't have much to play for at club level, no disrespect to Breadagh. Take the lads that play for Kilcoo, Bryansford, Mayobridge, Burren, etc. these lads all play for clubs that have serious ambitions at a senior club championships. They can't afford to waste a few years of not being match sharp for when they go back to their clubs.

You can sit there and say all this nonsense about putting the shoulder to the wheel, etc. but the reality is there is not a level playing field when it comes to claiming a place, especially when you see the likes of Eoin McCartan continuously getting a run out. These players are not pawns, they're amateurs who give up their free time AND work time to commit to a panel. Why commit when there is nothing beneficial there for them?