Down Club Hurling & Football

[Dubh driocht]

Snoopdog is right about us trying to get too close to shoot; especially against the Donegal system players should have the confidence to have a go. Our current captain Mark Poland is a class act; his balance and reading of the game are excellence but , with his ability, he should shoot on sight. Ryan Mallon is still finding his feet at this level but is a great prospect; in the second half he found himself at the end of one of our better moves and probably should have off-loaded to Poly but snatched at a poor effort. As captain, Poly should have encouraged the lad but banged the ground in frustration; understandable maybe but I don't see any better players in the county apart from our injured men so every one of them should be fit to take a score- time and confidence should improve things.
Confidence is key here. Our heads have gone down two weeks in a row, it's as if we think we aren't as good as Tyrone or Donegal. We might not be the complete package but we are good and should have no fear of any of them. In the first half we outfought the All Ireland champions on their first big match on their own turf since lifting Sam. IMO they are likely to win it again this year yet our boys ripped into them, showed no respect and should have been further ahead but got no help from an annoying referee. In the second half there was only one winner from 5 minutes on. So a break will allow our good management team to reflect and fix it. We need to sort out the 45s- 6 different kickers in 2 games must be some sort of record- remind ourselves that we are here by right and start by beating Cork (for the first time since the 94 sem-final I reckon).

[stiff breeze]

mourne rover you would think reading your report down were not far away last night but in reality , donegal missed a hatfull of chances early on and never really upped their intensity throughout, id say they had harder training sessions.
Down are in a building phase, they wont survive div 1 this year but have a good young spine that can be built on over time.

[Mourne Rover]

My summary was that Down had competed well in the first half but effectively collapsed after the break and allowed Donegal to win with the minimum of fuss. There was no suggestion that we were in serious contention at the decisive stage of the game and conceding nine consecutive points tells its own story.

The reality is that we are rebuilding and introducing a different defensive approach which was absolutely necessary. Our results are likely to be mixed in the short term, and, as we all know, we are in a very tough division.

[whitegoodman]

My main issue/worry is not our defence but our forward line at the minute. People say down always produce good forwards but this hasn't been reflected  in our first two games. If you take Donal ohare out of the forward line I think only benny and maybe Harrison out of the forwards have scored.

For all lavertys buzzing about and hard work he struggles to make an impact against the bigger teams.  Poland is in the worse run of form since he broke into the county setup and mccumiskey is not being utilised properly unless he is close to goal.  Add to the benny not being able to make the same impact as a few years ago and we are struggling.

For me we need to move Carr and mckernan into the forward line to increase the strength and height and only 2 from 3 of laverty, mccumiskey and ohare should start.

For cork if we have no further injured players back I'd go for

Cunningham
McCartan
Mcardle
Boyle
Mallon
Garvey
Quinn
King
Rooney (only man to take a clean catch when he came on last night)
Mckernan
Poland
Carr
Laverty
Harrison
Ohare

With benny and mccumiskey to make an impact with 20 to go. Also if mckernan or Carr don't do the necessary work on the flanks take them off and bring on someone who will.

Quinn should be used in defence IMO, he is potentially one of the best defenders in the county and should be used there.  Dan McCartan takes a lot if abuse on here and I wouldn't be one of his biggest fans but he is due credit for the last 2 performances against 2 of the best forwards in the county.

The two point lads have also made a promising impact which is encouraging. Any positives we have are of a defensive nature which would normally be good but the fact that we have few forwards to come into what has been an inept forward line to date is worrying.

[Pangurban]

A harsh dose of realism lads, beat by Tyrone who had 6 debutantes,and Donegal who have not been training seriously. It is possible that we could go through this whole league campaign without a win thus taking a losing mentality into the championship. There are some positives, the emergence of Boyle and O Hare in particular, but when teams get a run at us eg. Donegal scoring 7 unanswered points, neither management or players seem to have a clue how to stop the rot. Following a good performance against Tyrone, i had hoped that the currently injured players would have trouble forcing their way back onto the first fifteen, but alas and alack its back to the old dogs to save us. I am not optimistic

[SQUAREBALL]

A harsh dose of realism lads, beat by Tyrone who had 6 debutantes,and Donegal who have not been training seriously. It is possible that we could go through this whole league campaign without a win thus taking a losing mentality into the championship. There are some positives, the emergence of Boyle and O Hare in particular, but when teams get a run at us eg. Donegal scoring 7 unanswered points, neither management or players seem to have a clue how to stop the rot. Following a good performance against Tyrone, i had hoped that the currently injured players would have trouble forcing their way back onto the first fifteen, but alas and alack its back to the old dogs to save us. I am not optimistic

Similar to last night in Newry. U-21's were 9 points up on Tyrone at one stage and ended up losing by a point. Down only scored 2 points in the second half. Management had no idea how to stop the rot. Ryan O'Hare was sent on and a selector kept shouting at him to "run around as he was fresh"

[PAULD123]

Realism is that we are trying to play to a new system. Things don't just happen over night. It takes a lot of hard work and practice to get things right. Some of the changes look like they are working. Our defence is the best it's been since 2010. But the boys are running out of steam and perhaps confidence drains too quickly when the opposition score a few quick points. But we could not continue with the porous defence we had, something had to be done and with a dramatic change of system will come a period of transition.

At least the early priority is on stopping conceding scores. Sam Allardyce recently was asked how to fix the problems of a failing side. He said - "First you get the players to stop conceding. After that confidence returns and attacking creativity naturally develops"

If we can make ourselves hard to beat then there is always the chance that at the end of the game we will be in there with a chance of sneaking victory. This is exactly how Tyrone started out on becoming the best team in Ireland. If we can become a hard-working, dogged bunch of mongrels then we will be in at the death against anyone.

It may not be pretty to begin with but look where Tyrone started and look where they ended up.

[stiff breeze]

Realism is that we are trying to play to a new system. Things don't just happen over night. It takes a lot of hard work and practice to get things right. Some of the changes look like they are working. Our defence is the best it's been since 2010. But the boys are running out of steam and perhaps confidence drains too quickly when the opposition score a few quick points. But we could not continue with the porous defence we had, something had to be done and with a dramatic change of system will come a period of transition.

At least the early priority is on stopping conceding scores. Sam Allardyce recently was asked how to fix the problems of a failing side. He said - "First you get the players to stop conceding. After that confidence returns and attacking creativity naturally develops"

If we can make ourselves hard to beat then there is always the chance that at the end of the game we will be in there with a chance of sneaking victory. This is exactly how Tyrone started out on becoming the best team in Ireland. If we can become a hard-working, dogged bunch of mongrels then we will be in at the death against anyone.

It may not be pretty to begin with but look where Tyrone started and look where they ended up.

What exactly is this new system? Also 1-11 against tyrone and 12 points against donegal are hardly defensive shut outs. we are not hard to beat tyrone did it with a man less and donegal cantered home. Stop living in dreamland

[PAULD123]

What exactly is this new system? Also 1-11 against tyrone and 12 points against donegal are hardly defensive shut outs. we are not hard to beat tyrone did it with a man less and donegal cantered home. Stop living in dreamland

Well admittedly if your definition of a good defensive display is to shut a team out then either you are a perfectionist or haven't watched a whole lot of Gaelic football. 12 points conceded would be considered a very good defensive display in most county matches. In the Championship in 2010 only two matches ended with a winner scoring 12 or less, in 2011 only 4, and in 2012 only 5.

That's 176 games out of 187 where keeping the opposition to 12 points would result in a victory. So you would win 94% of all championship games.

I am pretty sure you are on your own saying keeping the All-Ireland champions to 12 points in their own home ground  is not a good defensive outcome.

This a work in progress, first stop the rot in over-conceding, then start to develop a clinical attack from this solid foundation. Tyrone implemented this in the early 2000's, Donegal did it over two years to go from jokers to the country's best team.

Alternatively we could just criticise and dismiss the efforts to change before we have even seen the final results, before we have given them a chance. But personally I have never seen a student pass an exam the first day of class before he has ever studied or practised his subject.

[stiff breeze]

What exactly is this new system? Also 1-11 against tyrone and 12 points against donegal are hardly defensive shut outs. we are not hard to beat tyrone did it with a man less and donegal cantered home. Stop living in dreamland

Well admittedly if your definition of a good defensive display is to shut a team out then either you are a perfectionist or haven't watched a whole lot of Gaelic football. 12 points conceded would be considered a very good defensive display in most county matches. In the Championship in 2010 only two matches ended with a winner scoring 12 or less, in 2011 only 4, and in 2012 only 5.

That's 176 games out of 187 where keeping the opposition to 12 points would result in a victory. So you would win 94% of all championship games.

I am pretty sure you are on your own saying keeping the All-Ireland champions to 12 points in their own home ground  is not a good defensive outcome.

This a work in progress, first stop the rot in over-conceding, then start to develop a clinical attack from this solid foundation. Tyrone implemented this in the early 2000's, Donegal did it over two years to go from jokers to the country's best team.

Alternatively we could just criticise and dismiss the efforts to change before we have even seen the final results, before we have given them a chance. But personally I have never seen a student pass an exam the first day of class before he has ever studied or practised his subject.

Cant argue with your stats as i dont have enough time on my hands nor want to do the research you have done. I call it as i see it, stats cant be managed to work any angle.Give them a chance!!!!? You talk about the down team learning new defensive systems like we have a new management in place with new ideas, WE DONT , the core management has been there 3 years and defence has been the main problem from day one. you still have not answered my original question What is our system??

[PAULD123]

Oh Well here goes - Down have played a system where defenders are responsible for the man they are marking. To assist the defenders one corner forward dropped into half forward allowing a half forward to drop deep (Danny Hughes) and make himself available for passes and to keep possession. The principle in this system is to effectively control the ball just past our midfield line. The problem was that it didn't work because game after game the one-one defending got caught out either by a fast break or a direct ball.

Now Down are trying to develop a system where the defenders work more as a unit. No-one tries to directly disposes their man (risking being beaten and left in the dust). Now when a team get a break, Down all funnel back, happily over-running the ball so that they can set up a a defensive line around our 21. Instead of challenging on the 45 we now flood the 21-30m zone. Meaning teams are getting into our half easily but will then be unable to shoot freely and likely will give a turn-over.

The difficult bit is that the forwards have to get used to timing runs off turnovers, knowing when to break into attack, linking with the defenders who retrieve the ball, finding a way to get the ball into the most effective area as quickly as possible. This took Donegal two years to develop. We are playing more physical half-forwards (Quinn & Coulter) as they should be capable of fighting for a ball if sent forward from our defensive turnover.

The problem with the system is refereeing. By allowing teams deep into our territory we run the risk of referees giving free kicks against us. Donegal got 2 very soft frees early in second half which really killed things off. The system is vulnerable to referees interpreting a challenge as a foul when it may just be an obstruction (legal).

By the way were you at Ballyboofey?

[Pangurban]

Quote from Pauldi--- Instead of challenging on the 45 we now flood the 21-30m zone

Do you believe present day Co.players are incapable of kicking points from 21 /30 mts

[whitegoodman]

Quote from Pauldi--- Instead of challenging on the 45 we now flood the 21-30m zone

Do you believe present day Co.players are incapable of kicking points from 21 /30 mts

The majority of he current down panel certainly struggle to, last Saturday being a prime example!!

[PAULD123]

Quote from Pauldi--- Instead of challenging on the 45 we now flood the 21-30m zone

Do you believe present day Co.players are incapable of kicking points from 21 /30 mts

As WhiteGM says it is a problem for us. But you raise a good point. No defensive system is perfect both have risks.

Not every side has a problem scoring from approx 30m, and that is the advantage of sending out a team to defend high up. The risk is that if the high defensive line is broken then there is a big gap for players to run into between the two defensive lines. This is what happened to us last year when the top teams ripped through our high half-back line and tore into open space in the middle of our half. They then just picked off shots at their leisure.

So the alternative is the new approach which is to defend deep and prevent easy shots but, as you say, potentially allow teams pot-shots from 30m.

However it isn't that simple. As I said the defenders charge back over-running the ball to get into a defensive position. It doesn't mean everyone runs to our 21 and waits for it. If  team were to attack and then pull up about 30m out, the players who are running deep (toward 21m line) would simply advance and prevent the shot. As for the runner carrying the ball, well he is always being tracked so he can't leisurely just stop and pick his spot. The aim is to have a lot of players always in front of the ball so that any attacker is under pressure entering a scoring zone, has not got a clear shot, has a swarm of opposition defenders closely in front of him, and can not see an unmarked team-mate unless he humps it backwards.

The main risk is not that attackers find themselves in acres of space 30m out. It is that the attacker solos the ball directly at the defence and either due to bad refereeing or defenders ill-discipline he gets an easily scoreabale free.

I think the system is easily beaten though if the opposition have half-backs that can shoot fast and accurate. In that case the opposition attack and effectively push the defence back. The ball is punted back to a late advancing half-back who has to catch and kick really quickly.

two things about that - Firstly there are not a lot of Aaron Kernan's about, secondly that is why Laverty sacrifices himself so much for the team. He will pick up that late runner and even a bit of pressure makes it really difficult for anyone to score from 35m out on a catch-kick snapshot.

[stiff breeze]

no i wasnt in at the match last weekend. Trying to replicate Donegal's system isnt workin for us, it only took donegal six months to improve their defensive side of the game ,from maginess took over til round 1 in the championship.  they nearly won sam that year  by being totally negative but in his second term they had added an attacking edge and were the complete article.

The problem with tryin to play that way is down do not have jim maginess, its not simply a case of flooding the defence as we seem to be doing if it was everyone would be doin it this way. maginess is a tactical genius and worked on a system of play tirelessly, there were so many sessions done at walking pace , this hasnt happened in the down camp, there in lies the problem.