Down Club Hurling & Football

[6th sam]

  6thSam,
    will you be attending the County Board yourself as you have made some great points which if put forward to the delegates will surely win over the doubters?

No,I am not a member of the county board,or a club delegate.It's just that I feel that our club structures,have benefitted from recent imaginative county board improvements and could be improved further.The main problem I have, is that more than 50% of our clubs don't contribute to the county playing effort.These proposals may not improve that in the short term,but at least the county board is trying to do something about it.I hope that clubs respect the county board's good faith on this one,as otherwise it may be an opportunity lost.

By the way ,good luck on Sunday,Fair play!

[John Martin]

Is there actually a split of the leagues at the halfway point mentioned in these proposals.
Also there defiantly is a mention of splitting the leagues based on the location of the clubs rather than some sort of seedings.
Maybe there is some merit to your idea 6th Sam but the current proposals differ greatly from what you are discussing and IMO are of no benefit to any team.

[thewobbler]

6th Sam, there's only 30 odd players in a county squad. Even if we went down a fascist route of 1 player per club, we'd still only have 70% of clubs supplying county players.

I know you mean well in what you're suggesting, but what club you play for and what league you play in has only a small sway in your chances of county football. Natural ability and determination are the overriding factors. I'd even go so far as to say that attending a GAA secondary school, where you play and train at an elite level for 7 years, has much more influence on your football ability than juvenile club training and structures.

[EDChief]

Long time Lurker.  First time poster.

Having looked at the new proposals for the league structure i think that they could do with a bit of tweeking, of that there is no doubt.
The idea of getting the league finished up before August is to to be commended.
Look at the ridiculous situation that Carryduff and Tullylish find themselves in this weekend.
A disgrace that this game is being played at this time of the year and neither has had a competitive game in weeks.

The current proposals need to have a division 3 split after half the games.
As stated previously this will give those clubs of a lesser standard something to play for.

With emmigration becoming a huge problem in rural clubs, you may find "bigger" clubs status will also be affected in the coming years.  You may seen some of the regulars of our first and second division on the slide.
These proposals will give clubs the chance to regroup quickly whenever(IF) these players return.

They are worth a shot.  As all ready stated, if they fail we can always revert to what we had

[The Chief]

When is this Co Board meeting and vote, if anything once the proposal is inevitably rejected, at least it'll put an end to the repetitve posts on this board that have been put on over the past 3 weeks or so


Plenty of Divison 3 and 4 players have been given a chance with the county football team over the past few years, whether it be trials at senior, U21 or minor level, or as part of the panel. Truth is, the vast majority of them just aren't good enough

[Down Mad]

Finally Carryduff and Tullylish get to fulfill the promotion playoff fixture this weekend after a month of non competitive football, madness!! I don't know how both sets of management teams have kept their respective squads motivated over this period.

Surely now the County Board will see the misgivings in the leagues and the way they are played out. I don't agree with the massive changes that are proposed i.e.combining 3rd and 4th divisions, this is a rediculous proposal, however something will have to be done.

The suspension of the league for a full month during July was inexplicable, the other problem was teams postponing fixtures due to other sporting commitments.

I wish both Carryduff and Tullylish the best this weekend pity only one can be promoted. Also best of luck to Burren, keep the Down flag flying!!

[6th sam]

6th Sam, there's only 30 odd players in a county squad. Even if we went down a fascist route of 1 player per club, we'd still only have 70% of clubs supplying county players.

I know you mean well in what you're suggesting, but what club you play for and what league you play in has only a small sway in your chances of county football. Natural ability and determination are the overriding factors. I'd even go so far as to say that attending a GAA secondary school, where you play and train at an elite level for 7 years, has much more influence on your football ability than juvenile club training and structures.

Fair points wobbler,but county board can't do much about the school issue.
Also why do other counties have a greater spread of clubs on their senior team-is it their club structures or are there other reasons for it?

[6th sam]

When is this Co Board meeting and vote, if anything once the proposal is inevitably rejected, at least it'll put an end to the repetitve posts on this board that have been put on over the past 3 weeks or so


Plenty of Divison 3 and 4 players have been given a chance with the county football team over the past few years, whether it be trials at senior, U21 or minor level, or as part of the panel. Truth is, the vast majority of them just aren't good enough

I don't think anyone suggested that county managers have not given players a chance.We are talking about a long term plan to improve standards across all clubs.

[thewobbler]

Which counties are these 6 Sams?

Derry had half of Ballinderry playing for them for years. Tyrone could have picked a 15 more-or-less from Errigal, Moy and Ardboe throughout the noughties. Take St Eunan's, Naomh Conaill and Four Masters players out of the Donegal squad, and you'd be left with enough for a netball team. Armagh had 4 Mullaghbawn men and 3 Cross men in the team alone when they won in 2002.

And seeing as nobody else has won an Ulster title in recent memory, maybe we don't need to keep looking at other teams?

[RadioGAAGAA]

Mayobridge is the only club in Down to have come from div 4 to div 1,in living memory

Maybe not division 4, but you'd have found Kilcoo, Saval, Ballyholland, Longstone, An Riocht, Liatroim all languishing in lower league football 20 odd years ago. Along with Mayobridge, they're now all SFC staples.

I can check the dates, but if I remember right, we (Kilcoo) got promoted from Div 3 to Div 2 in '97, then to Div 1 in '98.

Dundrum might even have dumped us into Div 4 in the late 80s/early 90s... I'm just a touch too young to remember for sure though! (pretty sure we did have a league play off against them, not sure if it was a promotion or relegation play-off)

The county board doesn't decide a club's position 6th Sam. The attitude, resolve and persistence of its members do this.

Absolutely.

Anything else is just excuses.

If a club goes looking for advice and help on how to coach youngsters, they will get it. But the club needs to be serious about taking it on.

Luckily for me, our committee and members were very serious and followed through. So, when I was coming through underage, men like Ray Morgan were in training us once in a while and showing our coaches new methods at the same time.

Now, there are a number of county development officers - so clubs really don't have much to hide behind for not getting their coaching up to scratch if they are serious about it.

[stiff breeze]

the new propasals are nonsense, they will not aide down football in any way. If they go ahead there will be so many more non event games at the end of the season as there is no relegation and also it will leave it that teams at the top will benefit playing teams at the bottom later in the season so the fixture layout will majorly benifit some promotion chasing teams . Also if a div 4 team is good enough they will get to div 3 in 2 years which is possible under the current format. I predict alot of the east down teams going for this proposal as it will benifit them as that league will be easier if its geographically based.

First of all ,I would imagine that the leagues will be seeded on current league position,and then consider convenient geographical location.There was no proposal to go East and South Down.Div 4 and Div 3 this year both had a number of non-played or "dead rubber" games.None of these occurred in the first half of the season.
If the league is split after 1 round of fixtures,then every team in Div 3 will have end of season games against roughly equal standard opposition.This will test the top teams,and prepare them for Div 2,and give the bottom teams something to fight for at the end of season.The extra incentive for all teams,could be that final league position,will determine seeding for 2013,league and championship.Therefore every team is likely to play the full season out-which didn't occur this year.

I imagine,that the goals of the county board are to revitalise football in both lower leagues,particularly for those at the bottom of Div 4.And also to try to ensure ambitious,potential county footballers are given a better opportunity to develop  IN THEIR OWN CLUB,and perhaps eventually see more county players emerge from lower league clubs(as happens in other counties).In the absence of any better proposals,to achieve those  goals,I feel clubs should back these proposals for the good of Down football

You need to do better research. Two of the main reasons given for the change are cutting travel costs and maxamising game attendance so it will be based geographically. As for your point about county players improving, it has no basis. A county standard player will shine in div 4 and 3 with the current set up, as proven by kevin anderson, mc comiskey, harrison  and more lately miskelly . The reason there are not more county standard players in division 3 and 4 is the bad youth set ups and poor player development techniques of these teams. The youth structures need changed to bring a better standard of player through.

[DownFanatic]

Mayobridge is the only club in Down to have come from div 4 to div 1,in living memory

Maybe not division 4, but you'd have found Kilcoo, Saval, Ballyholland, Longstone, An Riocht, Liatroim all languishing in lower league football 20 odd years ago. Along with Mayobridge, they're now all SFC staples.

I can check the dates, but if I remember right, we (Kilcoo) got promoted from Div 3 to Div 2 in '97, then to Div 1 in '98.

Dundrum might even have dumped us into Div 4 in the late 80s/early 90s... I'm just a touch too young to remember for sure though! (pretty sure we did have a league play off against them, not sure if it was a promotion or relegation play-off)

The county board doesn't decide a club's position 6th Sam. The attitude, resolve and persistence of its members do this.

Absolutely.

Anything else is just excuses.

If a club goes looking for advice and help on how to coach youngsters, they will get it. But the club needs to be serious about taking it on.

Luckily for me, our committee and members were very serious and followed through. So, when I was coming through underage, men like Ray Morgan were in training us once in a while and showing our coaches new methods at the same time.

Now, there are a number of county development officers - so clubs really don't have much to hide behind for not getting their coaching up to scratch if they are serious about it.

Dundrum were runners up in 1986 in Division 4 and got promotion. Then in 1987 we won Division 3. We stayed in Division 2 until 1994. We also claimed the scalp of Saval in the 1st Round of the SFC in 1990. I think Shamrocks beat us in the Quarter Finals that year.

I've a newspaper snippet from 1989 from a Division 2 game were Dundrum beat Kilcoo 1-08 to 1-07 in Dundrum. James and Dan Morgan were marked out as star Kilcoo performers that day. John Kielty, brother of Paddy, top scored with 0-05.

Funnily enough alongside that snippet it showed that Dundrum won a further two games that week. We hammered Warrepoint 4-08 to 0-04 and beat Carryduff 2-05 to 0-09. How times have changed.

[Minus15]

Have to agree with Stiff Breeze here. 6th Sam has been repeating his argument for a while now. Yes it is always a good thing to try and improve player development and increase the prospects of county players coming from all clubs but how a change in league structures will achieve that I don't know. For the most part, the reasons that you give for change can in no way be attributed to the change that has been proposed.

Most people can see that these proposals are not good and will only be to the short term gain of a handful of clubs. Again I must say that the reasons for games not being played in Div 3 this year was poor planning, not the league structure.

I certainly hope it isn't a case of those that shout loudest getting their way. A wee bit of rational thinking will tell you that these proposals would do more harm than good!

[Bearly on loose]

Mayobridge is the only club in Down to have come from div 4 to div 1,in living memory

Maybe not division 4, but you'd have found Kilcoo, Saval, Ballyholland, Longstone, An Riocht, Liatroim all languishing in lower league football 20 odd years ago. Along with Mayobridge, they're now all SFC staples.

I can check the dates, but if I remember right, we (Kilcoo) got promoted from Div 3 to Div 2 in '97, then to Div 1 in '98.

Dundrum might even have dumped us into Div 4 in the late 80s/early 90s... I'm just a touch too young to remember for sure though! (pretty sure we did have a league play off against them, not sure if it was a promotion or relegation play-off)

The county board doesn't decide a club's position 6th Sam. The attitude, resolve and persistence of its members do this.

Absolutely.

Anything else is just excuses.

If a club goes looking for advice and help on how to coach youngsters, they will get it. But the club needs to be serious about taking it on.

Luckily for me, our committee and members were very serious and followed through. So, when I was coming through underage, men like Ray Morgan were in training us once in a while and showing our coaches new methods at the same time.

Now, there are a number of county development officers - so clubs really don't have much to hide behind for not getting their coaching up to scratch if they are serious about it.

Dundrum were runners up in 1986 in Division 4 and got promotion. Then in 1987 we won Division 3. We stayed in Division 2 until 1994. We also claimed the scalp of Saval in the 1st Round of the SFC in 1989. I think Shamrocks beat us in the Quarter Finals that year.

I've a newspaper snippet from 1989 from a Division 2 game were Dundrum beat Kilcoo 1-08 to 1-07 in Dundrum. James and Dan Morgan were marked out as star Kilcoo performers that day. John Kielty, brother of Paddy, top scored with 0-05.

Funnily enough alongside that snippet it showed that Dundrum won a further two games that week. We hammered Warrepoint 4-08 to 0-04 and beat Carryduff 2-05 to 0-09. How times have changed.

You may wish to inform the county records on that.  According to those Saval defeated Liatroim in the Intermediate Championship final in 1989.   Perhaps it was the following year.

[DownFanatic]

Mayobridge is the only club in Down to have come from div 4 to div 1,in living memory

Maybe not division 4, but you'd have found Kilcoo, Saval, Ballyholland, Longstone, An Riocht, Liatroim all languishing in lower league football 20 odd years ago. Along with Mayobridge, they're now all SFC staples.

I can check the dates, but if I remember right, we (Kilcoo) got promoted from Div 3 to Div 2 in '97, then to Div 1 in '98.

Dundrum might even have dumped us into Div 4 in the late 80s/early 90s... I'm just a touch too young to remember for sure though! (pretty sure we did have a league play off against them, not sure if it was a promotion or relegation play-off)

The county board doesn't decide a club's position 6th Sam. The attitude, resolve and persistence of its members do this.

Absolutely.

Anything else is just excuses.

If a club goes looking for advice and help on how to coach youngsters, they will get it. But the club needs to be serious about taking it on.

Luckily for me, our committee and members were very serious and followed through. So, when I was coming through underage, men like Ray Morgan were in training us once in a while and showing our coaches new methods at the same time.

Now, there are a number of county development officers - so clubs really don't have much to hide behind for not getting their coaching up to scratch if they are serious about it.

Dundrum were runners up in 1986 in Division 4 and got promotion. Then in 1987 we won Division 3. We stayed in Division 2 until 1994. We also claimed the scalp of Saval in the 1st Round of the SFC in 1989. I think Shamrocks beat us in the Quarter Finals that year.

I've a newspaper snippet from 1989 from a Division 2 game were Dundrum beat Kilcoo 1-08 to 1-07 in Dundrum. James and Dan Morgan were marked out as star Kilcoo performers that day. John Kielty, brother of Paddy, top scored with 0-05.

Funnily enough alongside that snippet it showed that Dundrum won a further two games that week. We hammered Warrepoint 4-08 to 0-04 and beat Carryduff 2-05 to 0-09. How times have changed.

You may wish to inform the county records on that.  According to those Saval defeated Liatroim in the Intermediate Championship final in 1989.   Perhaps it was the following year.

Your right. It was 1990 not 1989.