Down Club Hurling & Football

[marsbarkid]

You cant have your first reason for restructuring the leagues because Paul McCommiskey will be playing div 4 football. That is ridiculous. Dundrum and McCommiskey were not good enough for div 3 this season and that is why they are in div 4. If they are as good as you suggest, they will win div 4 next year and earn their right to be back in div 3 but I wouldnt bet on it either to be honest.

I agree Ardtole but unfortunately i think keeping Paul in Div3 is a small part of the Co.Board's agenda with the restructuring of Div3+4. I'm merely trying to suggest a viable alternative to their farcical proposals with the inevitable monumental mismatches Re Div3. I have no issue with their proposals for a new championship format at all.

[6th sam]

Re. The new proposals for Div 3/4, i think it would be madness for the likes of Fin,Kinlar+Aghaderg etc voting this in, it would be like turkeys voting for christmas! (no offence intended) In Div 4 this yr 3rd placed Bredagh finished with a points difference of +219 while 4th placed Dromara finished on +11 There was an obvious gulf in class between the top 3 and the rest of Div 4.
A possible alternative to the new proposals would be the Top 3 in Div 4 this yr(Saul,Drumaness+Bredagh) joining this yrs Div 3 line up including Dundrum + Mitchels, thus creating a 15 team Div 3 + a more evenly matched 8 team Div 4.
Div 4 would have 3 series of matches giving all teams a minimum of 21 games with the whoever finishes on top being guarenteed promotion with 2nd +3rd playing off + the winner gaining promotion + playing in the Div 4 Final.
Div 3 would be slightly more complicated with each team playing each other once (14 games) then split into 2 sections, giving all teams a minimum of 20/21 games.
Section 1 would have the top 7 teams after the 1st series play each other 1 more time with top being guarenteed promotion to Div 2 with 2nd + 3rd playing off etc.
Section 2 would have the remaining 8 teams play each other once more with the bottom team relegated to Div 4 + the 2 above them playing off to see who joins them. These 3 teams + the 8 in Div 4 would make up the participants in the following years Junior Championship. The top 2 in this section could play off in a Div 3 Shield final, with the carrot of some silverwear helping mantain interest until the end of the season.
Any opinions especially from those board members involved with any current Div3/4 teams would be much appreciated. 

some good ideas there,but I have 1 main reservation-the past  3 seasons the leagues have been rejigged,partly because the old div 4 of 8 teams,was not popular with clubs,the 3 rounds breeding familiarity,and games not being played out.

Aughlisnafin-now there's an interesting debating point.They have taken numerous tankings over the past few seasons,but they have genuine players and supporters who field for all their games and appear to enjoy the experience.They genuinely played some good football this year,and have a number of good players.The experience of taking heavy defeats has not dulled their enthusiasm for the  GAA,and they are obviously learning from playing better opposition.Would they be able to cope with some more quality opposition.Effectively this year they played 6 matches against teams of arguably div 3 standard-Saul,Drumaness,Bredagh.In the new system they would be playing 7 or 8 games against div 3 standard teams,before a possible split ,and then an opportunity to play teams of their own standard for silverware.So in effect they are only exposing themselves to 1 or 2 extra potential "tankings" under the new system.If and when they make progress The Fin are only 1 step away from IFC,and two steps away from SFC,making it much easier to motivate their current and future players.

[thewobbler]

I agree Ardtole but unfortunately i think keeping Paul in Div3 is a small part of the Co.Board's agenda with the restructuring of Div3+4.

That's right, and they did the thinking between when they killed JFK and faked putting a man on the moon.


If you genuinely believe the county board consider Division 3 football as acceptable, but Division 4 football as unnacceptable for an established county player - to the point that they'd urgently reshape the entire league structures to stop it happening - then you must be on a rapid descent to madness.


The simple truth is that just like all the recent commenters on here, they just want to see some balance in Down football, and for now anyway, this is one idea they're flying with.

[ardtole]

I hope they leave things the way they are. We have had a couple of years restructuring to get the leagues the way they are. ie 10 teams in 1 & 2, 12 in 3 and 11 in 4. All teams have found their genuine level, just run with it I say.

[outinfront]

Genuine level? I wouldnt agree with that.  With week in week out challenging games teams can improve.  Bredagh were unlucky not to go up.  One bad performance in a one off game saw to that.  Drumaness played better and won so fair play to them. 3 teams went down last year and only 2 went up.  Our problem for not taking the opportunity I guess, but 2/3 years ago we were in playoffs for promotion to Div2!

[6th sam]

I hope they leave things the way they are. We have had a couple of years restructuring to get the leagues the way they are. ie 10 teams in 1 & 2, 12 in 3 and 11 in 4. All teams have found their genuine level, just run with it I say.

Surely the way this years Div 3 has dragged on,should be avoided in the future.Ardtole you expressed reservations about this on many occasions,and at the earliest the div 3 final will be on nov 27th,with tullylish/carryduff having had no football for a month.The new system,which should definitely include a specific cut-off date for league fixtures,will prevent this scenario in the future.
Also having sampled div 2,3,4 over the years under various formats,I would disagree with those that say there is no problem with Div 4.There were a number of unplayed games in the second half of the league.With the current 11 teams ,you are basically condemning a number of erstwhile div 3 standard teams to playing most of their games against weaker opposition.The way that Teconnaught,and St Pauls for example appear to have deteriorated under this system,is regrettable.
DF's assertion that basically Div 4 clubs have got themselves into that league on the basis of poor administration or organisation,is unfair to clubs like Drumaness,Saul,Bredagh for example,who would vigorously challenge that assertion.
One of the main reasons clubs are in Div 4,is because of "tradition".In the same way as success breeds success,failure can breed failure,as the club's youth have little to aspire to ,when they see their club playing in Div 4.As a result many good players in these clubs don't develop,or transfer to more successful neighbouring clubs (Ballykinlar,Saul,Drumaness,Aghaderg,Teconnaught and Dundrum have all suffered this in recent years).
The county board's well thought out,and objective recommendations effectively promotes 11 teams,and gives them a leg up.If this goes through it would be interesting to see how clubs like Ballykinlar and Aughlisnafin respond to the challenge.If it is the disaster that some predict,it is very easy to revert to the old system.Because we are dealing with the bottom tier,there are no major negative implications of putting this system to the test.
I feel that we should go for this but a mid-season split would allay concerns,about too many mismatches.The split would allow all clubs the opportunity to play most of their games,particularly at end of season,against similar standard teams.
Any lower league club who doesn't embrace this opportunity,are selling their current and future PLAYERS short,in my opinion.

[The Chief]

a few points -

1) it isnt up to the county board to stop certain clubs failing at football, if teams are in Division 4 its because they haven't been good enough, its up to themselves through hard work and training to get out of it, not the county board

2) there are hammerings in all divisions, in all leagues and sports the world over

3) Division 3 dragged on this season because of poor organisation from county board, there weren't enough Monday night matches, as well as Kilcliefs (unpredicted) success in both codes. This can be looked at and learnt from for future years, i dont think leagues have to be restructured again to address the fact that Division 3 dragged on a few weeks more

[6th sam]

a few points -

1) it isnt up to the county board to stop certain clubs failing at football, if teams are in Division 4 its because they haven't been good enough, its up to themselves through hard work and training to get out of it, not the county board  .I am sure the county board,and clubs who pay into the county board,would disagree.It is up to the county board to try and raise standards and look after the interests of all clubs-The fact that Div 3/4 clubs don't produce enough county players,compared to other successful counties,surely is a situation that needs to be improved.
2) there are hammerings in all divisions, in all leagues and sports the world over .Agree,and a fear of hammerings should not  block any improvement.
3) Division 3 dragged on this season because of poor organisation from county board, there weren't enough Monday night matches, as well as Kilcliefs (unpredicted) success in both codes. This can be looked at and learnt from for future years, i dont think leagues have to be restructured again to address the fact that Division 3 dragged on a few weeks more

Most clubs  would want to avoid extra Monday matches,as it puts unnecessary pressure on county players,and on clubs who have players working away.Hurling matches are played on mondays anyway so extra monday matches would have been no benefit in div 3 this year anyway.

[ardtole]

I hope they leave things the way they are. We have had a couple of years restructuring to get the leagues the way they are. ie 10 teams in 1 & 2, 12 in 3 and 11 in 4. All teams have found their genuine level, just run with it I say.

Surely the way this years Div 3 has dragged on,should be avoided in the future.Ardtole you expressed reservations about this on many occasions,and at the earliest the div 3 final will be on nov 27th,with tullylish/carryduff having had no football for a month.The new system,which should definitely include a specific cut-off date for league fixtures,will prevent this scenario in the future.
Also having sampled div 2,3,4 over the years under various formats,I would disagree with those that say there is no problem with Div 4.There were a number of unplayed games in the second half of the league.With the current 11 teams ,you are basically condemning a number of erstwhile div 3 standard teams to playing most of their games against weaker opposition.The way that Teconnaught,and St Pauls for example appear to have deteriorated under this system,is regrettable.
DF's assertion that basically Div 4 clubs have got themselves into that league on the basis of poor administration or organisation,is unfair to clubs like Drumaness,Saul,Bredagh for example,who would vigorously challenge that assertion.
One of the main reasons clubs are in Div 4,is because of "tradition".In the same way as success breeds success,failure can breed failure,as the club's youth have little to aspire to ,when they see their club playing in Div 4.As a result many good players in these clubs don't develop,or transfer to more successful neighbouring clubs (Ballykinlar,Saul,Drumaness,Aghaderg,Teconnaught and Dundrum have all suffered this in recent years).
The county board's well thought out,and objective recommendations effectively promotes 11 teams,and gives them a leg up.If this goes through it would be interesting to see how clubs like Ballykinlar and Aughlisnafin respond to the challenge.If it is the disaster that some predict,it is very easy to revert to the old system.Because we are dealing with the bottom tier,there are no major negative implications of putting this system to the test.
I feel that we should go for this but a mid-season split would allay concerns,about too many mismatches.The split would allow all clubs the opportunity to play most of their games,particularly at end of season,against similar standard teams.
Any lower league club who doesn't embrace this opportunity,are selling their current and future PLAYERS short,in my opinion.

I have criticised the administration of div 3 this year, not the structures. The last 5 or 6 games were never allocated a date to be played at the start of the year. Regardless of what format you have, there has to be a schedule to adhere to. I argued the leagues should have started earlier and the July holiday should be shorter.

There are teams in div 2 who regard themselves as unfortunate not to be in div 1. To argue that bredagh are too good for div 4 is crazy, if they had to have won the league at a canter and then lost in some play off system I would agree with you but that wasnt the case. There are 3 teams in div 3 well ahead of the chasing pack, do you think these 3 teams should all be promoted as well?

We have four competitive divisions for both promotion and relegation, two up and two down, a simple and effective format, there is no need to complicate things.

[marsbarkid]

I agree Ardtole but unfortunately i think keeping Paul in Div3 is a small part of the Co.Board's agenda with the restructuring of Div3+4.

That's right, and they did the thinking between when they killed JFK and faked putting a man on the moon.


If you genuinely believe the county board consider Division 3 football as acceptable, but Division 4 football as unnacceptable for an established county player - to the point that they'd urgently reshape the entire league structures to stop it happening - then you must be on a rapid descent to madness.


The simple truth is that just like all the recent commenters on here, they just want to see some balance in Down football, and for now anyway, this is one idea they're flying with.

Lol! Sorry Wobbler when i said 'small' i should have said very very very very small, right at the very back of maybe even 1 county board member's mind! Ur prob right about the the rapid descent to madness tho! 

[No1]

No mention of the proposals for the hurling?  They have got to be a wind up, some people definitely have too much time on their hands.  An absolute joke set of proposals.

There is no need to re-jig the football leagues, are we not still in the middle of the last re-structuring?  The reason teams are in Division 1, 2, 3 and 4 respectively is that their players collectively are only good enough for that particular division.  Mayobridge didn't go from 4 to 1 because of some committee room administrative bullshit, they went through the divisions because their players were dedicated and talented (they also had one of the all time greats playing for them!).  By the same token Kilclief languished in Division 4 for years because the players were not dedicated or talented enough.

[DaisyCutter]

Down Senior training squad were well beaten last night by a much fitter, faster and stronger Kilcoo side in Eoghain Rua Pairc.

Down team boasted only Kalum King (played at full foward) and Aidan Carr (centre half foward) in their starting 15 while Conor Laverty and Aidan Brannigan played for their home club. Ill try my best and list the team below:

1. Mickey McAlister (banbridge)
2. ?
3. Peter Turley (D'pattick
4. Eamon  (Clonduff)
5. David McKibben (Bryansford
6. John McCarthty (L'island)
7. Keith Quinn (Mayobridge)
8. ?
9. ?
10. Arthur McConville (Clonduff)
11. Aidan Carr (Clonduff)
12. Timmy Hanna (Bryansford)
13. Marcus Miskelly (Darragh Cross)
14. Kallum King (Bryansford)
15. Ross McGarry (Warrenpoint)

Final Score: Down 1-6 Kilcoo 2-7

[rogueryhill]

Lads, you might want to tell the County Board to have a wee look over in the Ulster Club Championship thread before they start rejigging the leagues to help wee Paul. There's a rumour over there that he's heading to St Gall's! Any truth in it?

[marsbarkid]

I hope they leave things the way they are. We have had a couple of years restructuring to get the leagues the way they are. ie 10 teams in 1 & 2, 12 in 3 and 11 in 4. All teams have found their genuine level, just run with it I say.

Surely the way this years Div 3 has dragged on,should be avoided in the future.Ardtole you expressed reservations about this on many occasions,and at the earliest the div 3 final will be on nov 27th,with tullylish/carryduff having had no football for a month.The new system,which should definitely include a specific cut-off date for league fixtures,will prevent this scenario in the future.
Also having sampled div 2,3,4 over the years under various formats,I would disagree with those that say there is no problem with Div 4.There were a number of unplayed games in the second half of the league.With the current 11 teams ,you are basically condemning a number of erstwhile div 3 standard teams to playing most of their games against weaker opposition.The way that Teconnaught,and St Pauls for example appear to have deteriorated under this system,is regrettable.
DF's assertion that basically Div 4 clubs have got themselves into that league on the basis of poor administration or organisation,is unfair to clubs like Drumaness,Saul,Bredagh for example,who would vigorously challenge that assertion.
One of the main reasons clubs are in Div 4,is because of "tradition".In the same way as success breeds success,failure can breed failure,as the club's youth have little to aspire to ,when they see their club playing in Div 4.As a result many good players in these clubs don't develop,or transfer to more successful neighbouring clubs (Ballykinlar,Saul,Drumaness,Aghaderg,Teconnaught and Dundrum have all suffered this in recent years).
The county board's well thought out,and objective recommendations effectively promotes 11 teams,and gives them a leg up.If this goes through it would be interesting to see how clubs like Ballykinlar and Aughlisnafin respond to the challenge.If it is the disaster that some predict,it is very easy to revert to the old system.Because we are dealing with the bottom tier,there are no major negative implications of putting this system to the test.
I feel that we should go for this but a mid-season split would allay concerns,about too many mismatches.The split would allow all clubs the opportunity to play most of their games,particularly at end of season,against similar standard teams.
Any lower league club who doesn't embrace this opportunity,are selling their current and future PLAYERS short,in my opinion.

6thSam - After reading over all your different arguments im starting to come round to your way of thinking (slightly) but there would definitely have to be a split after 1 series of games with possibly the bottom 5 in each section forming a new grouping to play for a Division 3 'Shield' with the top 4 playing semi's + a final. Trying to reach the top4 in this new 10 team section would help motivate teams + maintain interest after all their early season drubbings!
Like u suggested it could be run on a 2 or 3 year trial period and if it turns out to be a disaster, the bottom 8,9,10, or 11 teams could be let go to form a new Division 4 again.
Would still prefer my version of the proposals but it doesnt look like i have much support
Enjoyed the debate tho.

[ardtole]

The acfl 1,2,3,4 are adult leagues. It is all about promotion and relegation, introducing a shield for the bottom half of the divisions is bullshit. Thats alright to keep the u10s interested and let them all go home with a medal. A shield cup for finishing in the bottom half of the league is patronising and any self respecting footballer would be embarrassed to win it.