Down Club Hurling & Football

[ranch]

As an outsider looking at the DOWN SFC you must think its tragically uncompetitive without realsing it probably one of the toughest championships in Ireland. If you take the next top teams Carryduff, Burren, Warrenpoint, Loughinisland, Clonduff, RGU etc and placed them in most other counties they would run riot.

Theres also like 10 others teams in down that on their day could challenge any team.

You have to give credit where its due. Kilcoo just have a never let die attitude on the pitch and it shows year after year.

Warrenpoint, Burren and Clonduff in particular have all come ridiculously close in recent years with extra time, penalties and last second scores but never got over the line. Still cracking teams though.

"Run riot"? Based on what?

I guess is the kind of nonsense Armagh folks too would have come up with during Cross's golden era, to make themselves feel better.

The most baseless of claims.

——

Kilcoo, as expected, have been quicker to adapt to the new rules than everyone else.

Kerry showed everyone the basis of this game in the latter stages of the AI; when your opponent isn't in a deep defensive shape, move the ball quickly so you get a shot away before they can reset. Then press up on their resultant kickout, And do it again. And again.

Carryduff on the other hand spent the middle 30 minutes of the match exploding out of defence and midfield, before hitting an invisible wall at Kilcoo's 45, which seemed to shuffle them sideways and backwards.

Kilcoo are a brilliant team, and I'm taking nothing away from them here by the way. But everyone in Down it seems just turns to mush at the sight of black and white jerseys. Coaches over coach and over think. Brains falter. Legs falter. Risks are not taken. Overlapping runs disappear. One on ones never materialise. Momentum is never grasped.

Your point about Armagh is an interesting one. During Crossmaglen's period of dominance I think they were the only team to beat Dromintee for about 6/7 years in a row in the Armagh championship (2002-08 roughly). Sometimes it went to a replay, other times they won by a point or two but they always did enough. In another county Dromintee might well have won a championship, but those counties also have their own successful teams (Mayobridge were dominating in Down around that time for example).

Carryduff will be thereabouts for a few years yet but there's no guarantee they'll win a championship.
Clonduff gave Kilcoo probably their toughest game, but last year they lost to Glenn - they don't see to have any consistency.
I was shocked at how poor Burren were in the semi final.

[thebigfullforward]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

Why should you not get promoted for winning the league out of interest?

[Truth hurts]

I am a believer that the league should be linked to the championship. The top 16/12 from the league should be in the senior championship with the IFC winners if they are below that.
There was nothing wrong with the old format and I have never witnessed a relegation championship game that seemed to have a massive feel about it. The Liatroim and Bryansford game this year was a non event.

[ranch]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

Why should you not get promoted for winning the league out of interest?

You should get promoted to a higher division if you win the league, as is the case currently in Down. My point is that league form shouldn't dictate what championship grade you play in, instead it should be based on championship performances. I don't like the idea of championship and league being linked.

[ranch]

I am a believer that the league should be linked to the championship. The top 16/12 from the league should be in the senior championship with the IFC winners if they are below that.
There was nothing wrong with the old format and I have never witnessed a relegation championship game that seemed to have a massive feel about it. The Liatroim and Bryansford game this year was a non event.

I get why that system appeals to people and it is relatively popular in Armagh and very popular in Tyrone. I just don't like teams moving up a championship grade without winning the championship grade below.

[Mourne Red]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

A daft statement is saying a Division 4 team could go to Division 1 and not win a JFC

[general_lee]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

A daft statement is saying a Division 4 team could go to Division 1 and not win a JFC

It happened in Cavan three years ago when Arva were bate by a point. They won the Junior title the following year while plying their trade in Division 1 - they won Cavan, Ulster and All Ireland, before winning the Cavan Intermediate the following year and reaching the Ulster final before losing to Ballinderry by a point (funnily enough another Division 1 team).

[thebigfullforward]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

Why should you not get promoted for winning the league out of interest?

You should get promoted to a higher division if you win the league, as is the case currently in Down. My point is that league form shouldn't dictate what championship grade you play in, instead it should be based on championship performances. I don't like the idea of championship and league being linked.

My fault. Forgot that league and championship isn't linked in most counties. Yeah fair enough if league is pretty much treated as a few friendly games it probably should be based on championship performances

[manwithnoplan]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

A daft statement is saying a Division 4 team could go to Division 1 and not win a JFC

It happened in Cavan three years ago when Arva were bate by a point. They won the Junior title the following year while plying their trade in Division 1 - they won Cavan, Ulster and All Ireland, before winning the Cavan Intermediate the following year and reaching the Ulster final before losing to Ballinderry by a point (funnily enough another Division 1 team).

There is not a chance a good division 3 team wouldn't walk the JFC in Down, never mind a team promoted to div 2 or 1.

[Truth hurts]

I'd venture to predict that most club players in the county would want to eliminate championship relegation in senior and intermediate and to have the league associated with the championship.

[outinfront]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

Why should you not get promoted for winning the league out of interest?

You should get promoted to a higher division if you win the league, as is the case currently in Down. My point is that league form shouldn't dictate what championship grade you play in, instead it should be based on championship performances. I don't like the idea of championship and league being linked.

Going by this then Carryduff would still be playing Junior Championship! 

[PTC]

Should the SFC and IFC be reduced to twelve teams each to improve standards?

How does that help the SFC? Less teams won't close the gap to Kilcoo. If you have a lot of Div 3 teams in the JFC it would make it very hard for the div 4 teams but you could argue most struggle anyway.

You could say it would make us more competitive at IFC & JFC in Ulster.

Yes, our records in IFC and JFC at provincial level have been poor in recent years. A Junior B title could be effective for teams knocked out of the first round of the junior (seeded draw based on league placings).  I don't believe our championships met very high standards. It is a debate that I believe we should and it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions.

Our championships have actual junior/intermediate teams playing in them. We aren't like Cavan having a senior team in junior championship

Daft statement. Cavan's system is no worse than Down's. A team in Down could get promoted from division 4 to division 1 in consecutive years but fail to win the junior championship. That makes them a division 1 team, not a 'senior' team.

I actually like the fact that Down and Cavan don't link their league to championship grade as I think you should only move up a championship grade if you win the one below, rather than get a good league run. I wish Armagh would follow suit but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Regarding the original point about 12 teams in championship, it has some merit.
12 teams in senior, intermediate,
Junior (4 groups of 3). Remainder in junior b. Bottom teams in each group enter relegation play offs. Top 2 go into quarters.

Why should you not get promoted for winning the league out of interest?

You should get promoted to a higher division if you win the league, as is the case currently in Down. My point is that league form shouldn't dictate what championship grade you play in, instead it should be based on championship performances. I don't like the idea of championship and league being linked.

Going by this then Carryduff would still be playing Junior Championship! 

At least we wouldn't have to listen to them horns at senior final

[skat man]

I'd venture to predict that most club players in the county would want to eliminate championship relegation in senior and intermediate and to have the league associated with the championship.

the only two differences in senior would be rostrevor and an riocht replace castlewellan and drumgath and arguably full out drumgath and castlewellan are better that rostrevor and an riocht and are only below them because they lose burns and gooch respectively . Dont let the truth cloud a bit of a moan , the current system works