Down Club Hurling & Football

[marsbarkid]

Re. The new proposals for Div 3/4, i think it would be madness for the likes of Fin,Kinlar+Aghaderg etc voting this in, it would be like turkeys voting for christmas! (no offence intended) In Div 4 this yr 3rd placed Bredagh finished with a points difference of +219 while 4th placed Dromara finished on +11 There was an obvious gulf in class between the top 3 and the rest of Div 4.
A possible alternative to the new proposals would be the Top 3 in Div 4 this yr(Saul,Drumaness+Bredagh) joining this yrs Div 3 line up including Dundrum + Mitchels, thus creating a 15 team Div 3 + a more evenly matched 8 team Div 4.
Div 4 would have 3 series of matches giving all teams a minimum of 21 games with the whoever finishes on top being guarenteed promotion with 2nd +3rd playing off + the winner gaining promotion + playing in the Div 4 Final.
Div 3 would be slightly more complicated with each team playing each other once (14 games) then split into 2 sections, giving all teams a minimum of 20/21 games.
Section 1 would have the top 7 teams after the 1st series play each other 1 more time with top being guarenteed promotion to Div 2 with 2nd + 3rd playing off etc.
Section 2 would have the remaining 8 teams play each other once more with the bottom team relegated to Div 4 + the 2 above them playing off to see who joins them. These 3 teams + the 8 in Div 4 would make up the participants in the following years Junior Championship. The top 2 in this section could play off in a Div 3 Shield final, with the carrot of some silverwear helping mantain interest until the end of the season.
Any opinions especially from those board members involved with any current Div3/4 teams would be much appreciated. 

[redandblackareback]

Under 21 Result

Kilcoo 4-12 Shamrocks 1-5

Barry Kane and Jerome Johnston hit two goals apiece as Kilcoo easily accounted for Shamrocks.
Looking on at county trialist Conor Gough, i dont know how the Down management see him as an answer in midfield. Cleaned out by our midfield today, James McClean totally dominant.

Have never seen much of Gough Playing bar a few schools games but if he s not standing out in a sub standard U21 league then Id be worried! Have you seen much of him NP at senior level for shamrocks?

[DownFanatic]

Re. The new proposals for Div 3/4, i think it would be madness for the likes of Fin,Kinlar+Aghaderg etc voting this in, it would be like turkeys voting for christmas! (no offence intended) In Div 4 this yr 3rd placed Bredagh finished with a points difference of +219 while 4th placed Dromara finished on +11 There was an obvious gulf in class between the top 3 and the rest of Div 4.
A possible alternative to the new proposals would be the Top 3 in Div 4 this yr(Saul,Drumaness+Bredagh) joining this yrs Div 3 line up including Dundrum + Mitchels, thus creating a 15 team Div 3 + a more evenly matched 8 team Div 4.
Div 4 would have 3 series of matches giving all teams a minimum of 21 games with the whoever finishes on top being guarenteed promotion with 2nd +3rd playing off + the winner gaining promotion + playing in the Div 4 Final.
Div 3 would be slightly more complicated with each team playing each other once (14 games) then split into 2 sections, giving all teams a minimum of 20/21 games.
Section 1 would have the top 7 teams after the 1st series play each other 1 more time with top being guarenteed promotion to Div 2 with 2nd + 3rd playing off etc.
Section 2 would have the remaining 8 teams play each other once more with the bottom team relegated to Div 4 + the 2 above them playing off to see who joins them. These 3 teams + the 8 in Div 4 would make up the participants in the following years Junior Championship. The top 2 in this section could play off in a Div 3 Shield final, with the carrot of some silverwear helping mantain interest until the end of the season.
Any opinions especially from those board members involved with any current Div3/4 teams would be much appreciated. 

Lad, thats not a bad proposal at all. There is a lot more sense attached to it than the county board's proposal which is completely ridiculous.

[NP 76]

Saw him a few times and he did well was a stand out player for the College over the last 2 seasons . He is a big lad who will fill out with the weights programme . This is a probelm we have had lack of big mobile men . Gough is a great runner who fill filter back instinctively to plug the holes in defence . I think he will come good but its not going to be straight away

[DownFanatic]

I think our Leagues and Championships are fine the way they are. However, taking in to account some of the changes that have been suggested on the board in the past while and some of the ways Leagues and Championships work in other counties the following is a mish-mash of how our system may be tinkered with.


5 Divisions in Down

Division 1 – 8 teams
Kilcoo, Mayobridge, Burren, Bryansford, Ballyholland, Clonduff, Saval, Longstone

Division 2 – 8 teams
An Riocht, Rostrevor, Castlewellan, Downpatrick, Liatroim, Loughinisland, Shamrocks, Annaclone

Division 3 – 9 teams
Warrenpoint, Clann na Banna, Ballymartin, Drumgath, Kilclief, Tullylish, Carryduff, Darragh Cross, Bosco

Division 4 – 9 teams
Glasdrumman, Glenn, Atticall, Ardglass, St Johns, Dundrum, Mitchels, Saul, Drumaness

Division 5 – 9 teams
Bredagh, Dromara, St Pauls, Bright, Teconnaught, St Michael's, Aghaderg, Aughlisnafin, Ballykinlar

Each team plays each other twice. Division 1 would have a total of 14 matches, Division 2 would have a total of 14 matches, Division 3 would have 16 games, Division 4 would have 16 games and Division 5 would have 16 games.

Then a playoff system would evolve as follows:

Division 1 – Top three teams playoff round robin. Winners are Division 1 champions. Bottom three teams playoff and team that finishes bottom get relegated.
Team that finishes second in relegation round robin then playoffs with team that finishes second in Division 2 promotion round robin. Winner of that game will play in Division 1 the following season.

Division 2 – Top three teams playoff round robin. Winners are Division 2 champions and get promotion. Team that finishes second in promotion round robin then plays off with team that finished second in the Division 1 relegation round robin. Winner of that game plays in Division 1 next season.

Division 3 - Top three teams playoff round robin. Winners are Division 3 champions and get promotion. Team that finishes second in promotion round robin then plays off with team that finished second in the Division 2 relegation round robin. Winner of that game plays in Division 2 next season.

Division 4 - Top three teams playoff round robin. Winners are Division 3 champions and get promotion. Team that finishes second in promotion round robin then plays off with team that finished second in the Division 3 relegation round robin. Winner of that game plays in Division 3 next season.

Division 5 - Top three teams playoff round robin. Winners are Division 5 champions and get promotion. Team that finishes second in promotion round robin then plays off with team that finished second in the Division 4 relegation round robin. Winner of that game plays in Division 4 next season.

So for example:

If Carryduff, Darragh Cross and Bosco finished in the bottom 3 in Division 3 in 2012 they would playoff in a relegation round robin. Say Carryduff beat both Darragh Cross and Bosco and Darragh Cross then beat Bosco then the round robin would look like this:

Carryduff ----- Won 2 ----- 4 pts
Darragh Cross ----- Won 1 ----- 2 pts
Bosco ----- Won 0 ----- 0 pts

If Glasdrumman, Glenn and Atticall finished in the top 3 in Division 4 in 2012 they would playoff in a promotion round robin. Say Glasdrumman beat Glenn and Atticall and Glenn then beat Atticall then the round robin would look like this:

Glasdrumman ----- Won 2 ----- 4 pts
Glenn ----- Won 1 ----- 2 pts
Atticall ----- Won 0 ----- 0 pts

The outcome:
Bosco would be relegated to Division 4 while Glasdrumman would be promoted to Division 3 as Division 4 champions.
Darragh Cross and Glenn would then have a promotion/relegation playoff. If Darragh Cross win then they retain their Division 3 status while Glenn would remain in Division 4. If Glenn win then they go up to Division 3 with Darragh Cross getting relegated to Division 4.


The Championship would operate as follows:

SFC – 4 groups of 4, each team play each other once, top two in each group progress to Quarter Finals.
IFC - 4 groups of 4, each team play each other once, top two in each group progress to Quarter Finals.
JFC – 2 groups of 4 and a group of 3, each team play each other once. Top team in each group goes forward to the Semi Finals with the team with best runner up record in one of the groups of four also progressing to the Semi Final.

Example:

SFC
Group A – Kilcoo, Longstone, Downpatrick, Annaclone
Group B – Mayobridge, Saval, Castlewellan, Shamrocks
Group C –  Burren, Clonduff, Rostrevor, Loughinisland
Group D – Byransford, Ballyholland, An Riocht, Liatroim

IFC
Group A – Warrenpoint, Darragh Cross, Atticall, Mitchels
Group B – Clann na Banna, Carryduff, Glenn, Dundrum
Group C – Ballymartin, Tullylish, Glasdrumman, St Johns
Group D – Drumgath, Kilclief, Bosco, Ardglass

JFC
Group A – Saul, Teconnaught, Ballykinlar,
Group B – Drumaness, Dromara, Bright, Aughlisnafin,
Group C – Bredagh, St Pauls, St Michael's, Aghaderg

Championship groupings are placed on League positions at start of season before matches commence.
IFC winners and JFC winners play in the SFC and IFC respectively in the following playing year.

[kumquat]

....
A split Div 4 as PAULD123 says would be a better proposal, but i would leave the championship alone, straight knock out is what makes it so good.

Who does it make it good for? It makes it good for 3-4 clubs who can win it. But what about the clubs that are the bottom of the pile? Good enough to win or at least challenge for an IFC but no where near good enough for SFC. The championship is a total waste of time for many clubs. These clubs are being made play at a level above themselves.

Why not have everyone play in a single preliminary round (seeded of course) with winners playing in SFC. Losers all go to IFC where there is a second preliminary round with those losers going to JFC. After that championship runs as we currently know it with straight knock-out. This would allow a team to find a level where they would have the chance to win soem kind of championship.

I accept the number of rounds/games/seeding system would need to be considered carefully. But I put this out as simply a proposal in principle. I just want everyone to have a chance of winning something.

I meant to add "in my opinion" it's what makes it so good, I like the championship the way it is.

[marsbarkid]

Down Fanatic ur proposals for a new league structure look good as well although it still leaves a very strong Bredagh team in the bottom division. I totally agree with ur proposals for the 3 championships, have fancied the idea of the round robin format for the last few years myself.
Whatever happens i think the Co.Board will try to get some stuctural changes through this winter as they (+most of the rest of us) dont want to see Paul McComiskey playing in Div 4 next year.

[dundrumite]

Df you get them other plans done? Extremely positive procrastination

[DownFanatic]

Df you get them other plans done? Extremely positive procrastination

YUP

[6th sam]

Down Fanatic ur proposals for a new league structure look good as well although it still leaves a very strong Bredagh team in the bottom division. I totally agree with ur proposals for the 3 championships, have fancied the idea of the round robin format for the last few years myself.
Whatever happens i think the Co.Board will try to get some stuctural changes through this winter as they (+most of the rest of us) dont want to see Paul McComiskey playing in Div 4 next year.

Very important point.I think we can't afford to have county players,or potential county players languishing in the lower leagues.
Fair play to you DF,you have obviously put alot of thought into your proposals but here are a few potental downfalls to your system.
1.Consigning  clubs like St Pauls and Bredagh to Div 5,would be disastrous for them and for the development of Gaelic football in North Down.
2.14 league games comes nowhere near Croke Park's recommendation of at least 22 games per year,and clubs are being short changed by getting only 7 home games,and no opportunity for a return fixture.This effectively further shortens a season which is only 5-6 months long anyway.
3.Round robin has proved controversial(cf Derry),and proved problematic with the ACMFC this year,with a number of games not being played.The difference between the GAA version and champions league is that right up until the last game,all games in the champions league group stages are meaningful as teams jostle for position to get favourable seeding for the knockout stages or even the Europa league 3rd spot.That is not workable in GAA.The new qualifier concept suggested by county board is innovative,and ingenious in my opinion,with all clubs guarenteed a minimum of 3 championship games.The qualifiers at AISFC level have been a breath of fresh air for many counties,including ourselves in 2010,so why not adopt the concept for our own SFC.
4.We have a responsibility to provide all our potential county players the highest standard of football possible.
5.Your proposal effectively relegates 27 clubs
6.We all have our own personal club agendas,the county board have a vested interest in trying to find a system that improves overall standards.I feel we have to respect that they are likely to be more objective,and see the "whole picture" better than members of individual clubs.
7.Most players I have spoken to are in favour of the county board proposals.


The county board proposal makes total sense to me as someone who has been involved in Divs 2,3 and 4.Perhaps an amendment involving a mid season split would get more support from the lower division clubs.Part of the reason these clubs continue to struggle is that their players are deprived of glamour football,and their youth therefore develop little enthusiasm, ambition or self belief.A talented player who happens to be born into one of these clubs stands little chance of county recognition.Thus we have a situation that Paul McComiskey is the only established county player to develop in Div 3 or 4 in 20 years.That's half the clubs in the county making no contribution to the county player pool.This is a situation that doesn't happen in counties like Tyrone,Cork,and Kerry (guess what they have in common).I am not on the county board,but I feel  very strongly that their proposals (or a development of them) should be embraced,and if they don't work ,we can always return to the status quo.

[umpire]

Joe Hughes R.I.P.

26 years with Down Supporter's club.
Joe put lots of effort in getting the Supporters club up and running years ago.

[5 Sams]

Joe Hughes R.I.P.

26 years with Down Supporter's club.
Joe put lots of effort in getting the Supporters club up and running years ago.

Sad to hear that...I assume it's the same Joe Hughes who ran the Credit Union for years.....RIP

[southdown]

If McComiskey plays for a division 4 club then surely that is his own tough luck.we cant be making changes to league structures to suit these players.

[marsbarkid]

Down Fanatic ur proposals for a new league structure look good as well although it still leaves a very strong Bredagh team in the bottom division. I totally agree with ur proposals for the 3 championships, have fancied the idea of the round robin format for the last few years myself.
Whatever happens i think the Co.Board will try to get some stuctural changes through this winter as they (+most of the rest of us) dont want to see Paul McComiskey playing in Div 4 next year.

Very important point.I think we can't afford to have county players,or potential county players languishing in the lower leagues.
Fair play to you DF,you have obviously put alot of thought into your proposals but here are a few potental downfalls to your system.
1.Consigning  clubs like St Pauls and Bredagh to Div 5,would be disastrous for them and for the development of Gaelic football in North Down.
2.14 league games comes nowhere near Croke Park's recommendation of at least 22 games per year,and clubs are being short changed by getting only 7 home games,and no opportunity for a return fixture.This effectively further shortens a season which is only 5-6 months long anyway.
3.Round robin has proved controversial(cf Derry),and proved problematic with the ACMFC this year,with a number of games not being played.The difference between the GAA version and champions league is that right up until the last game,all games in the champions league group stages are meaningful as teams jostle for position to get favourable seeding for the knockout stages or even the Europa league 3rd spot.That is not workable in GAA.The new qualifier concept suggested by county board is innovative,and ingenious in my opinion,with all clubs guarenteed a minimum of 3 championship games.The qualifiers at AISFC level have been a breath of fresh air for many counties,including ourselves in 2010,so why not adopt the concept for our own SFC.
4.We have a responsibility to provide all our potential county players the highest standard of football possible.
5.Your proposal effectively relegates 27 clubs
6.We all have our own personal club agendas,the county board have a vested interest in trying to find a system that improves overall standards.I feel we have to respect that they are likely to be more objective,and see the "whole picture" better than members of individual clubs.
7.Most players I have spoken to are in favour of the county board proposals.


The county board proposal makes total sense to me as someone who has been involved in Divs 2,3 and 4.Perhaps an amendment involving a mid season split would get more support from the lower division clubs.Part of the reason these clubs continue to struggle is that their players are deprived of glamour football,and their youth therefore develop little enthusiasm, ambition or self belief.A talented player who happens to be born into one of these clubs stands little chance of county recognition.Thus we have a situation that Paul McComiskey is the only established county player to develop in Div 3 or 4 in 20 years.That's half the clubs in the county making no contribution to the county player pool.This is a situation that doesn't happen in counties like Tyrone,Cork,and Kerry (guess what they have in common).I am not on the county board,but I feel  very strongly that their proposals (or a development of them) should be embraced,and if they don't work ,we can always return to the status quo.

Take Aughlisnafin for example in the 6 games they played against the top 3 in Div4 this year they had an average margin of defeat of 25 pts! but in their other 14 games they had an average points difference of -4, in their proposed Div3 section next season they would have Drumaness again + 6 higher ranked teams from this years Div3. My point is the probable outcome of at least a dozen 25pts+ demoralising defeats for the Senior team wouldnt be too 'glamorous' for their onlooking youth members.
Whist i'm in agreement for the mid season split i still honestly think the amendments i suggested for the Div3/4 would be more suitable for all  involved for the following reasons in no particular order.
1 Paul McComiskey + Dundrum would still be in Div3.
2 Bredagh who were much too strong for Div4 this year would also move up to Div3.
3 Both divisions would be much more evenly balanced, with very few 30pt beatings handed out!
4 Each team in Div3+4 would get at least 20/21 games

[ardtole]

You cant have your first reason for restructuring the leagues because Paul McCommiskey will be playing div 4 football. That is ridiculous. Dundrum and McCommiskey were not good enough for div 3 this season and that is why they are in div 4. If they are as good as you suggest, they will win div 4 next year and earn their right to be back in div 3 but I wouldnt bet on it either to be honest.