Author Topic: Islamic Jihadists ISIS  (Read 32019 times)

Keyser soze

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2014, 10:48:12 AM »
And I forgot to say that some of the crimes ISIS are committing are disgusting, it is scarey to think where all this might lead to.

johnneycool

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2014, 11:43:36 AM »
I'm sure his time in the country may have stood by him and maybe he just learned a thing or two about how these tribes, Sunni's, Shia's, Kurds etc operate, more than can be said for some of these politicians sitting in Washington, London, Brussels deciding what to do from a distance.

And I forgot to say that some of the crimes ISIS are committing are disgusting, it is scarey to think where all this might lead to.

Agreed, but what do you think would stop them?

Keyser soze

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2014, 12:10:21 PM »
I'm sure his time in the country may have stood by him and maybe he just learned a thing or two about how these tribes, Sunni's, Shia's, Kurds etc operate, more than can be said for some of these politicians sitting in Washington, London, Brussels deciding what to do from a distance.

And I forgot to say that some of the crimes ISIS are committing are disgusting, it is scarey to think where all this might lead to.

Agreed, but what do you think would stop them?

Well I think military intervention [western mostly it has to be said] in the region [and other areas of the world] has played a definite part in the rise of fundamentalist groups such as ISIS. The solution therefore will not be found in supporting some other faction militarily or by arming opposition groups as this has shown to be counterproductive. The most obvious examples of course being the Taliban, Al Qaeda and now ISIS. Im sure there are loads of other examples in other hotspots.

A military response may work in the short-term militarily but is not a solution as it will not address the reasons why fundamentalism is flourishing. Obviously I don't know the solution as im not knowledgable enough about the situation [same as everyone else on here] but if Tim Collins and his ilk are informing policy then we are surely destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.

southdown

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2014, 12:33:47 PM »
It seems ridiculous to me that the West fought a long and bloody war in Iraq, it is now turning into the mother of all messes, and they West don't seem to be doing a great deal.  To me, it begs the question why bother with the long war if you are going to do nothing to stop the place sliding into utter chaos?

NAG1

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2014, 12:45:53 PM »
It seems ridiculous to me that the West fought a long and bloody war in Iraq, it is now turning into the mother of all messes, and they West don't seem to be doing a great deal.  To me, it begs the question why bother with the long war if you are going to do nothing to stop the place sliding into utter chaos?

Is this not what has happened in every major conflict zone in the recent past?

Short term goals for these wars increasingly lead to bad planning and no end game therefore leaving a vacuum behind.

Dread to think if these extremists actually end up with control of a country with the natural resources of Iraq, what it will mean for the world.

Keyser soze

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2014, 12:59:49 PM »
As the apocryphal story goes...when asked what he thought of the French Revolution a Chinese leader replied that it was too early to tell.

The complete opposite seems to apply to foreign policy in the western democracies where a week is a long time in politics and strategic long term policy is focussed on the next election cycle.

Syferus

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2014, 03:08:10 PM »
It seems ridiculous to me that the West fought a long and bloody war in Iraq, it is now turning into the mother of all messes, and they West don't seem to be doing a great deal.  To me, it begs the question why bother with the long war if you are going to do nothing to stop the place sliding into utter chaos?

Because the US have more sense under Obama than under Bush. Getting involved in a land war would be madness. It would play right into their hands.

ISIS will be crushed under the weight of its own sensationalist killings, Iran, Iraq and Syria and US support. Ironically ISIS is doing more to mend fences between the US and Iran than almost any diplomacy has for the last thirty years. My enemy's enemy and all that.

It's not going to be a big landmass for very long. After that has been reduced they're just another terror organisation. Nothing special.

omaghjoe

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2014, 03:48:03 PM »
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!


Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.

Actually nationalism is the idea of a homeland for an ethnicity not a religion.

Ethnicity is basically a group of people that are linked through culture, race, religion and customs. You can blame all of these things instead of nationalism. But nationalism in some form or another is actually the root cause of most conflicts in the World outside of Africa.

Most religions promote peace, harmony, love of thy neighbour, inclusion mercy, understanding, forgiveness, not exactly war inciting traits. I think it would be fair to say if most people followed their religion truly there would be alot less conflict in the world.

Nationalism is basically saying that for your ethnicity to survive and thrive it needs a homeland to do so which is of course not true.

The Iceman

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2014, 05:29:15 PM »
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!


Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.

Actually nationalism is the idea of a homeland for an ethnicity not a religion.

Ethnicity is basically a group of people that are linked through culture, race, religion and customs. You can blame all of these things instead of nationalism. But nationalism in some form or another is actually the root cause of most conflicts in the World outside of Africa.

Most religions promote peace, harmony, love of thy neighbour, inclusion mercy, understanding, forgiveness, not exactly war inciting traits. I think it would be fair to say if most people followed their religion truly there would be alot less conflict in the world.

Nationalism is basically saying that for your ethnicity to survive and thrive it needs a homeland to do so which is of course not true.
great contribution there OJ!
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

lynchbhoy

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2014, 06:00:01 PM »

Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)


Ah that's great. They've moved on from killing to molesting and homophobia.
I'm worried that you might not be joking - and you are in a position of 'educator'

..........

Syferus

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2014, 06:33:34 PM »

Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)


Ah that's great. They've moved on from killing to molesting and homophobia.
I'm worried that you might not be joking - and you are in a position of 'educator'

You wouldn't catch Paul Galvin saying that stuff.

mylestheslasher

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2014, 07:41:32 PM »
Religion is the root of all evil. These guys are vermin but I'm afraid the vermin are not restricted to one religion, I am sure you could draw up a good list of christian groups that are fighting too. The unfortunate thing is that this is the b**tard children of the west, the failed reasoning of my enemies enemy is my friend policy.

Look at Egypt. A muslim government elected in democratic elections. A military coup sponsored by the yanks and the dictators are back in power. The net result - radical Islam will flourish.
Fcuk sake Myles
You might not like or have time for religion
But I don't know of any other religion that's perpetrating such war/ethnic cleansing/ genocide etc like this 
Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)

I think it's Israel not the Jewish religion that is responsible for most of the hassle in their region!

I'd hope that this insurgency is the last actions of a religion going a bit mad before it stabilizes.
However I'm not sure who or what will stabilize it!
The decent muslim folk seem too afraid to stand up to the warmongers.

If unattested, this third world problem may arrive at our first world doorstep soon!

No- I don't have ideas on how to quell it!

Are you serious!!

Do you remember the Serbia/Bosnia war. Christians perpetrating mass murder against muslims. Lebanon, a corrupt christian minority with their Israeli allies killing muslims.

What about America invasion of Iraq and of Afghanistan. USA is a christian government, Bush a fundamentalists every bit as brain dead as the fundamentalists of Islam.

Today islamic extremists may be the agressor in most cases but I wouldnt be too quick to let the peace loving christian religion of the hook.

omaghjoe

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2014, 08:42:27 PM »
Religion is the root of all evil. These guys are vermin but I'm afraid the vermin are not restricted to one religion, I am sure you could draw up a good list of christian groups that are fighting too. The unfortunate thing is that this is the b**tard children of the west, the failed reasoning of my enemies enemy is my friend policy.

Look at Egypt. A muslim government elected in democratic elections. A military coup sponsored by the yanks and the dictators are back in power. The net result - radical Islam will flourish.
Fcuk sake Myles
You might not like or have time for religion
But I don't know of any other religion that's perpetrating such war/ethnic cleansing/ genocide etc like this 
Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)

I think it's Israel not the Jewish religion that is responsible for most of the hassle in their region!

I'd hope that this insurgency is the last actions of a religion going a bit mad before it stabilizes.
However I'm not sure who or what will stabilize it!
The decent muslim folk seem too afraid to stand up to the warmongers.

If unattested, this third world problem may arrive at our first world doorstep soon!

No- I don't have ideas on how to quell it!

Are you serious!!

Do you remember the Serbia/Bosnia war. Christians perpetrating mass murder against muslims. Lebanon, a corrupt christian minority with their Israeli allies killing muslims.

What about America invasion of Iraq and of Afghanistan. USA is a christian government, Bush a fundamentalists every bit as brain dead as the fundamentalists of Islam.

Today islamic extremists may be the agressor in most cases but I wouldnt be too quick to let the peace loving christian religion of the hook.

You do realise that what you are talking about is nations waging war, or waging war in pursuit of a nation.
 
Nationalism is the cause of your aforementioned wars not religion.

Hardy

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2014, 09:03:21 PM »
If I'm not wrong, ISIS are butchering Christians, Yazidis, atheists and anyone else they consider "infidels" not for their nationality, but for their religion.

omaghjoe

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Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2014, 09:17:34 PM »
If I'm not wrong, ISIS are butchering Christians, Yazidis, atheists and anyone else they consider "infidels" not for their nationality, but for their religion.

Yes they are and any one else friend or foe that they do not deem suitable for the COUNTRY they are trying to establish.

As I have previously pointed out they have more in common with the Khymer Rouge than anyone else. Their aim is to force their ideals on a population, this as history as shown will inevitably fail.