Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[his holiness nb]

Ok Sammy, name the hunger strikers who were convicted of murder?

Dont go shiting on about what the IRA at the time did, tell me which of the hunger strikers were convicted of murder.

[SammyG]

Ok Sammy, name the hunger strikers who were convicted of murder?

Dont go shiting on about what the IRA at the time did, tell me which of the hunger strikers were convicted of murder.

I never mentioned hunger strikers.

[snatter]

Donagh,

No thoughts on my previous post re the shinners linking their support of the stadium to the conflict centre?
It would be nice for them to act in the GAA's best interests on this one.

Surely if the stadium is in the GAA's best interests, then the shinners should do the intelligent thing and let it proceed, whilst parking the conflict centre for a year or two.

Seems like a very good suggestion to me, but as far as I know, the idea of the stadium and conflict resolution centre was driven by an all party working group of Lisburn Council. I don't think SF as a party have a policy on it either way, although as one of their councilors was on the working group I assume they're supporting whatever he feels is the best way forward for nationalists in the Lisburn area.   

Donagh, do you genuinely believe everything you write here?

Did you miss the bit where I stated "as far as I know"?

The conflict resolution centre and stadium was first mentioned by these people way back in 2003. So I'm not sure what you are getting at SS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4296287.stm

You're very careful with the way you put things.

as far as I know, the idea of the stadium and conflict resolution centre was driven by an all party working group of Lisburn Council. I don't think SF as a party have a policy on it either way,

My reading would be that the only way the Shinners would agree to the stadium was if it went hand in hand with the CRC. You seem to be suggesting that the stadium and CRC is the idea of the working group. I don't know if it arrogant or naive to believe that the idea of a CRC came from that working party initially.

SS,

my reading would be the same as yours. See below.
I can't believe the nerve of these guys complaining about the lack of consideration given to the GAA in the whole debate (true), and then going on to say "no conflict centre, no stadium".

Now the GAA have made it perfectly clear that the stadium is very good for the GAA.
Will the shinners then ignore the GAA's wishes when it suits them and refuse to give the stadium the goahead if they can't get their conflict centre?



http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/18780
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Sinn Féin voice concern over stadium plans

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Published: 23 April, 2007

Sinn Féin Lagan Valley MLA, Cllr Paul Butler and Foyle MLA Raymond McCartney have said talk of plans to build a stadium at the former Long Kesh prison site cannot proceed unless there is agreement on opening up the preserved part of the jail to the public.


Mr Butler said:

Sinn Fein will not agree to plans to build any stadium until we get agreement to open up the jail as a visitor attraction with an iconic building built to the highest international standards."


Mr Butler and Mr McCartney also rejected proposals to build any stadium at Belfast. Mr Butler added:

"In all of the debate about stadiums in Belfast the GAA has been ignored and treated as if they do not exist. Sinn Fein will not back any plans for a stadium in Belfast."


Paul Butler and Raymond McCartney who sit on the Maze Long Kesh Monitoring Group, which oversees the development of the former prison, have said they have been concerned that the focus is only on building a stadium.


Mr Butler, who is vice chair of the group, said:

"No stadium can be built without agreement on developing the prison buildings as a visitor attraction similar to Kilmainham Jail in Dublin and Robben Island in South Africa. Both the stadium and the preserved prison buildings projects must proceed simultaneously."


Mr McCartney added:

"Sinn Fein and the DUP need to agree both proposals or else plans for a stadium will not proceed. There has been much debate recently over the proposals to have a stadium located at Long Kesh. However, what has to be pointed out in all of this is that this site is of huge historical importance in the conflict here over the last 30 years.

"The reality is that Long Kesh is unique in terms of international prison history and it has the strongest community links of any prison in the world. It is essential therefore that part of the jail be preserved. Those in support of the stadium at Long Kesh should also support the setting up a conflict resolution campus and visitor's centre. We want to see these proposals being given as equal an importance as any plans to have a stadium built there." ENDS

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[his holiness nb]

Ok Sammy, name the hunger strikers who were convicted of murder?

Dont go shiting on about what the IRA at the time did, tell me which of the hunger strikers were convicted of murder.

I never mentioned hunger strikers.

The centre is meant to commemorate the hunger strikers, you know this. You know this is who I was referring to also.

Unless you are willing to prove me wrong and state clearly that the hunger strikers were not murdering scumbags?

Either that of tell me which ones were convicted of murder.

Which is it?

[SammyG]

he centre is meant to commemorate the hunger strikers, you know this. You know this is who I was referring to also.

Is it? I think you need to have a wee read of the proposals.

Unless you are willing to prove me wrong and state clearly that the hunger strikers were not murdering scumbags?

Again I never mentioned the hunger strikers

Either that of tell me which ones were convicted of murder.

For the 3rd time, I did not mention the hunger strikers. I have no idea what they were convicted of and care even less.

Which is it?

'It' is that you can't read and seem to think that you should use telepathy and work out what I'm thinking, rather than read what I posted.

[his holiness nb]

Sammy you didnt mention the hunger strikers, you responded to a post in which I was clearly referring to them
"being that its a place where history took place and heroes (in some peoples eyes) on the republican side were born"

What else would I have been referring to here???

But again, I will ask you, despite your not mentioning them. Do you beleive the hunger strikers were murdering scumbags?
Yes or No.

[SammyG]

But again, I will ask you, despite your not mentioning them. Do you beleive the hunger strikers were murdering scumbags?
Yes or No.

Not that it has anything to do with the conversation but I'd say most (if not all) of them were, yes. As they were all active members (and in some cases commanding officers) in organisations that were murdering people on a daily basis, it would be amazing if they weren't involved, in those murders.

Now is there any chance we can get back to the discussion on the stadium, rather than your random rants?

[Donagh]

Snatter, I don't see where you are going with this. The all party working group agreed on the idea of a stadium and combined conflict transformation centre, so I assume they had the backing of their parties in principle to do so. Each of those parties then has members coming out in favour of a stadium in Belfast which then leads one to assume that (i) none of the parties have an official policy and (ii) the principle of the conflict transformation centre was conceded, so it's not an obstacle to the building of the stadium. The opposition to the stadium is coming from the pro-Belfast lobby and OWC soccer supporters. Butler's press release is crude and self-serving but he's a politician and that's what they do best. But at the end of the day he was on the working group and he was also the one who was shafted by the unionists after Lisburn got city status so he's bound coming out batting for his own side (i.e. for what he negotiated on the working group and what he sees as in the best interests of the nationalists in the 'Lisburn' area that elected him.)   

[his holiness nb]

Not that it has anything to do with the conversation but I'd say most (if not all) of them were, yes. As they were all active members (and in some cases commanding officers) in organisations that were murdering people on a daily basis, it would be amazing if they weren't involved, in those murders.

So you think they are murderers, yet have no evidence to back this up. Thanks for clarifying.

Then again you have rowed back later in the same post to say they were probably "involved" in the murders, instead of being the "murderers". Legally there is a big difference.

Now is there any chance we can get back to the discussion on the stadium, rather than your random rants?

Random rants? My original question referred directly to a possible reason for NI fans to oppose the stadium at the maze, which is what we are discussing. You came out with this statement in response, which you must agree, deserved clarification.

No rant about it.

[SammyG]

Not that it has anything to do with the conversation but I'd say most (if not all) of them were, yes. As they were all active members (and in some cases commanding officers) in organisations that were murdering people on a daily basis, it would be amazing if they weren't involved, in those murders.

So you think they are murderers, yet have no evidence to back this up. Thanks for clarifying.

Then again you have rowed back later in the same post to say they were probably "involved" in the murders, instead of being the "murderers". Legally there is a big difference.

Now is there any chance we can get back to the discussion on the stadium, rather than your random rants?

Random rants? My original question referred directly to a possible reason for NI fans to oppose the stadium at the maze, which is what we are discussing. You came out with this statement in response, which you must agree, deserved clarification.

No rant about it.

OK You're right, I'm wrong. You win. I give up and bow to your ultimate majesty and won't ever reply to any of your questions again, as you will already know what I'm thinking.

[his holiness nb]

Most people have a fair idea how you think when it comes to these matters Sammy!

But its big of you to finally admit when you are wrong.
Fair play.

[Evil Genius]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch ("The Lazy K"  ), on the subject of soccer fans' attitude to the H Blocks etc, it is true that a section of the NI support do not want to see their sport associated with them. Their reasons for saying this vary right across a spectrum from a simple desire to keep sport and politics separate, through a feeling of dread, sorrow and anger when reminded of some of the inmates and their activities, through to an absolute loathing of everything to do with it and a desire to see the whole place razed to the ground, as was done e.g. with Hitler's bunker.

I realise such views will cause offence to one degree or another to many posters on this site, but it does no harm (imo) for those posters also to appreciate the enormous offence felt by many of the rest of us at the possiblility of mere "remembrance" being hijacked by certain elements, bent on transforming it into "commemoration", or even "celebration."

For myself, I truly would like to see the place flattened, not from a desire to shame or humiliate those who think differently. Rather, it is on the basis that we have all the memorials we need in cemetaries the length and breadth of the country. That is, it happened, we can't deny it, but nor should we be bound by it, so the sooner it is consigned to history books, the better.

But given that that wish is likely not going to happen, then I am content to leave it to others to do whatever they like at the site. Just don't ask me to share what is for me, a truly awful place, which contained so many truly awful people (both "Loyalist" and Republican).

[And before anyone should climb in and attack me or my views, that is where I have arrived after long reflection and experience, I'm not likely to change it, I don't set out to offend, it's just what I believe - take it or leave it]

[Chrisowc]

While I do think the hunger strikers should be commemorated, is the idea of the centre here, or even the history of what happened there, a possible reason for the less enlightened members of the NI fans to not wish the stadium to be located here?

I know they may give other reasons, and am not suggesting this is the reason that EG and Sammy are objecting, but it could be in the minds of the more neanderthal members of their support, being that its a place where history took place and heroes (in some peoples eyes) on the republican side were born.

Now before you jump down my throat, I know the arguments for not having the stadium there, and will not dispute any of them, I was just wondering would this also be on some peoples minds when making their arguments.

I detest the idea of a shrine to these people.  Not as a Northern Ireland fan, but as an ordinary member of the public.  The fact that I do so, does not make me any less enlightened than anyone else.  Nor does it make me a neanderthal.

[his holiness nb]

I dont find that post offensive at all EG, its purely your opinion, and thats how you stated it rather than coming on saying "this is how it is, and this is what should be done".

Nothing to attack there, I wouldnt share the same opinion, but thats irrelevant.

[his holiness nb]

I detest the idea of a shrine to these people.  

Just to clarify Chris, as there seems to have been some confusion as to who I was referring to. Which people exactly do you mean?

Not as a Northern Ireland fan, but as an ordinary member of the public.  The fact that I do so, does not make me any less enlightened than anyone else.  Nor does it make me a neanderthal.

I was of the opinion that most people from a Unionist background would object to this shrine. I never said anyone who objected to the shrine / centre was less enlightened or neanderthal.

My point was asking would objections to the shrine, or if the centre didnt go ahead, the history of the place, be a reason to stop NI fans wanting to have the stadium there.

I wasnt asking about your opinion on whether the centre was right, I'd presume most NI fans would be against it.

I was asking if its at the back of some peoples minds when opposing the Maze stadium, as most of the arguments seem to be about logistical problems.
Not so many people have stated the fact that its the maze as being a problem in itself.