Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[snatter]

Somebody by the name of SammyG got pretty heated over capacity as well.
He kept denying reality, thinking that HOK weren't going to design a dual capacity 35k/42k stadium. Silly boy.

Here you go again with the bullshit. The issue of the 'moving stands' has nothing to do with the capcity it is to do with the fact that there is no plan and no budget to build stands that move and no other stadia that have moving stands. It wouldn't matter if you were talking about 10K/20K or 35k/42K or 75K/100K it still won't work.

Silly boy indeed. 

Who said anything about moving stands?
Maybe HOK will implement them, maybe they'll simply remove seats and allow some GAA fans to accomodate the bigger crowds that gaelic football attracts.

Stay patient. All will be revealed soon.

[SammyG]

Who said anything about moving stands?
Maybe HOK will implement them, maybe they'll simply remove seats and allow some GAA fans to accomodate the bigger crowds that gaelic football attracts.

Stay patient. All will be revealed soon.

Stadia with removeable seats are not permitted by FIFA/UEFA so that would rule the IFA out of the Maze.

Excellent news, can't wait for the formal announcement. 

[Evil Genius]

However, the difference is that whilst the GAA is in a position to manage without a new stadium, soccer is not.

I've never quite got my head around this.
Whats to stop the IFA fundraising and borrowing in the same way that the GAA does?

The gaa never stopped investing in grounds just because for most of the last century the Brit govt gave them sweet fa.
Why the dependency culture?
Why not consider doing it yourselves?

There are a whole host of reasons why soccer in NI is skint, some valid, many not. But whatever the cause, we are where we are and we have to deal with it.

And quite simply, UEFA and FIFA are imposing ever stricter stadium requirements and Windsor will not be allowed to be used for much longer. We need a new stadium soon, otherwise we will have to play our matches outside NI, which of itself would make it impossible for the IFA to fundraise/borrow etc the millions needed for a new stadium.

If you seek an equivalent, look at the position of the FAI, who have had to rent Croke whilst they re-develop Lansdowne (at Government expense, btw).

Except that no such alternative is open to the IFA, since even if the GAA were to allow it (and Hell would likely freeze over before they'd accommodate the NI soccer team!), trhere is not a single GAA ground in the whole of the six counties which would be acceptable to FIFA*.


* - Please don't ask why this should be so; there are pages and pages of Regulations on the subject, trust me.

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on June 19, 2007, 10:15:58 PM

No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

This is a disgraceful lie. Either produce your evidence that the people behind the Durnien proposal and its supporters - including Nationalist councillors and the local SDLP MP - are anti-GAA, or withdraw it.

My evidence?
The plot is allegedly too small to accomodate gaelic games.
My source? None other than yourself earlier in this thread. As you said yourself

"And in any case, the proposed site is probably not big enough to stage Gaelic games,"

How therefore can my statement possibly be a lie?

If you deliberately develop a stadium on a plot that is too small to accomodate gaelic football, then it is clear that the development does not cater for gaelic. Pretty obvious I'd say.

Nowhere did I say that anybody was anti-GAA.

What I did say and I repeat:

afaik, at no stage were the GAA invited or approached in any way about the Durnian proposal.
To ignore the largest spectator sport in NI, and all the revenue they bring,  shows that they never had any intention of GAA involvment.
From the outset the Durnian proposal had a 22k capacity - much too low to be of any use to the GAA (again see 2005 figures), but just big enough to recreate another mini Windsor).

Oh, and as if you were in any doubt, and as Evil Genus has already pointed out in this thread - the Ormeau developemnt isn't (and never was) big enough to accommodate gaelic games.
Yep, despite being surrounded by open parkland, they managed to select a plot that was just too small.
No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

I make no apology for describing the durnien proposal an "orange dome".
If you deliberately exclude the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, then, rightly or wrongly, that is what it will be perceived as.
It is the exclusion of a whole section of the northern irish community that is the real disgrace.
Especially if the council ever gifted them 10's of millions.

Imho, this developer has made a strategic mistake in not attempting to court the GAA and persudade them that Ormeau (or another site) are suitable. They have missed out on an opportunity to avail of millions of once-off funding.

I can't explain why the development company has apparently chosen not to involve the GAA, only it can.

[snatter]

However, the difference is that whilst the GAA is in a position to manage without a new stadium, soccer is not.

I've never quite got my head around this.
Whats to stop the IFA fundraising and borrowing in the same way that the GAA does?

The gaa never stopped investing in grounds just because for most of the last century the Brit govt gave them sweet fa.
Why the dependency culture?
Why not consider doing it yourselves?

There are a whole host of reasons why soccer in NI is skint, some valid, many not. But whatever the cause, we are where we are and we have to deal with it.

And quite simply, UEFA and FIFA are imposing ever stricter stadium requirements and Windsor will not be allowed to be used for much longer. We need a new stadium soon, otherwise we will have to play our matches outside NI, which of itself would make it impossible for the IFA to fundraise/borrow etc the millions needed for a new stadium.

If you seek an equivalent, look at the position of the FAI, who have had to rent Croke whilst they re-develop Lansdowne (at Government expense, btw).

Except that no such alternative is open to the IFA, since even if the GAA were to allow it (and Hell would likely freeze over before they'd accommodate the NI soccer team!), trhere is not a single GAA ground in the whole of the six counties which would be acceptable to FIFA*.


* - Please don't ask why this should be so; there are pages and pages of Regulations on the subject, trust me.

Problem solved in two easy steps
1. start fundraising to build a new stadium of your own
2. play your games in scotland until the new stadium is built.

or if you like

Problem solved in two easy steps
1. don't fundraise to build a new stadium of your own
2. play your games in scotland until the new Maze stadium is built.

[snatter]

Who said anything about moving stands?
Maybe HOK will implement them, maybe they'll simply remove seats and allow some GAA fans to accomodate the bigger crowds that gaelic football attracts.

Stay patient. All will be revealed soon.

Stadia with removeable seats are not permitted by FIFA/UEFA so that would rule the IFA out of the Maze.

Excellent news, can't wait for the formal announcement. 

They'll do what they did at Croker on hill 16 - have removable permanent seating.

Problem solved.
Night night.

[SammyG]

Who said anything about moving stands?
Maybe HOK will implement them, maybe they'll simply remove seats and allow some GAA fans to accomodate the bigger crowds that gaelic football attracts.

Stay patient. All will be revealed soon.

Stadia with removeable seats are not permitted by FIFA/UEFA so that would rule the IFA out of the Maze.

Excellent news, can't wait for the formal announcement. 

They'll do what they did at Croker on hill 16 - have removable permanent seating.

Problem solved.

I'll repeat again as it seems to take you three or four goes before you read things. REMOVEABLE SEATS ARE NOT ALLOWED BY FIFA/UEFA.

The FAI got a special dispensation for the Hill as it was only temporary whilst LR was being built, they would not have been allowed to use it under any other circumstances.

[Evil Genius]

Quote from: snatter on June 19, 2007, 10:15:58 PM

No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

This is a disgraceful lie. Either produce your evidence that the people behind the Durnien proposal and its supporters - including Nationalist councillors and the local SDLP MP - are anti-GAA, or withdraw it.

My evidence?
The plot is allegedly too small to accomodate gaelic games.
My source? None other than yourself earlier in this thread. As you said yourself

"And in any case, the proposed site is probably not big enough to stage Gaelic games,"

How therefore can my statement possibly be a lie?

If you deliberately develop a stadium on a plot that is too small to accomodate gaelic football, then it is clear that the development does not cater for gaelic. Pretty obvious I'd say.

Nowhere did I say that anybody was anti-GAA.

What I did say and I repeat:

afaik, at no stage were the GAA invited or approached in any way about the Durnian proposal.
To ignore the largest spectator sport in NI, and all the revenue they bring,  shows that they never had any intention of GAA involvment.
From the outset the Durnian proposal had a 22k capacity - much too low to be of any use to the GAA (again see 2005 figures), but just big enough to recreate another mini Windsor).

Oh, and as if you were in any doubt, and as Evil Genus has already pointed out in this thread - the Ormeau developemnt isn't (and never was) big enough to accommodate gaelic games.
Yep, despite being surrounded by open parkland, they managed to select a plot that was just too small.
No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

I make no apology for describing the durnien proposal an "orange dome".
If you deliberately exclude the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, then, rightly or wrongly, that is what it will be perceived as.
It is the exclusion of a whole section of the northern irish community that is the real disgrace.
Especially if the council ever gifted them 10's of millions.

Imho, this developer has made a strategic mistake in not attempting to court the GAA and persudade them that Ormeau (or another site) are suitable. They have missed out on an opportunity to avail of millions of once-off funding.

I can't explain why the development company has apparently chosen not to involve the GAA, only it can.

Durnien is a private developer, under no obligation to include/exclude anyone. He considers that a 25,000 seater stadium at Ormeau offers the best economic model for him to build and operate a viable stadium. However, even if the GAA were prepared to come to Belfast - a fact you consistently ignore - 25,000 is clearly inadequate for their purposes.

Consequently, to build a significantly larger stadium would cost more, take up more of the park, and make the stadium as a whole considerably less attractive to spectators at any other events required to be held.

As for your denying that Durnien etc are anti-GAA, your use of emotive phrases like "the Orange dome" and "they never wanted a GAA player about the place" seemed pretty much to me like you were accusing them of being anti-Catholic (not to put too fine a point on it).

As for whether Durnien has made a "strategic mistake" in ignoring a paying GAA audience, then I suggest you take that up with him. I daresay he knows a hell of a sight more about the economics of property development than you and I combined will ever know.

But even that will be irrelevant, since one of the few things which everyone else agrees on (except you) is that the GAA has simply no interest in any new stadium which might be built in Belfast, for a whole host of reasons. THEREFORE, THERE IS NO WAY THAT DURNIEN CAN BE BLAMED FOR NOT INCLUDING GAA IN HIS PROPOSED STADIUM DEVELOPMENT. (And I make no apologies for shouting, since I know of no other way of getting that across to you, short of writing it on a bit of paper, finding out where you live, and coming round and pinning it on your arse, er, front door!  )

[Evil Genius]

He [Sammy] got so worked up he kept referring to official attendance figures as bullshit.

The official attendance figures you quoted are not "bullshit" in the sense that they are incorrect, they are "bullshit" in the sense that they are misleading i.e. if fans were allowed to stand at Windsor in the same way they are e.g. at GAA matches, then the attendances would have been considerably bigger (at several matches, at least).

Sammy goes further since he considers that attendances (large or small) are irrelevant to soccer fans objections to the Maze. I personally disagree, though I accept his contention that a whole host of other, more pressing factors make the Maze unsuitable for soccer.

[T Fearon]

Soccer works brilliantly at Croker (suppose I would say that given my seats are in the centre lower section of the Hogan) so I see no problem at all with varying pitch sizes etc.

This is test to see if the powers that be can withstand the lobbying from the monoculural fringe of the six county's sporting (and I use the term loosely) fraternity ie the North's soccer supporters (which varies from 6000 in bad times to 15,000 in relatively reasonable times).

The new provincial stadium must be built at Long Kesh. FFS look at the tailback on the M1 when there's a game at Casement attracting between 10,000 to 20,000 only!

[snatter]

Land worth around £0.5bn to the public purse is being handed over free to private developers as part of the Maze stadium proposal, an academic claimed today.   

 
Mike Smyth from the University of Ulster claimed the sports minister Edwin Poots was plotting to create another Millennium Dome pushed through by political pressure.

He said up to 1,000 homes could be built on acres of land within the site which, if sold at commercial rates, would add £0.5bn to public coffers and front-line services.

A few initial thoughts on this report (still unpublished, so taking press coverage as reasonably accurate an spin free in the interim).

Point 1:

Any mention in this report of the value of land at Ormeau Park proposed to be given to a different private developer for a soccer only facility?

Point 2:

I must admit to be suprised at the suggested 30k cap on capacity.
Did Mike Smith look at GAA attendance figures like those posted earlier in the thread for 2005?
Surely they justify a greater capacity than 30k.
The GAA top brass have conssitently said we need a 40k caacity.
This has been independently verified as sensible by the department of economics at Uninversity College Cork. Link to their full analysis to follow.
Surely the GAA must reply to this report asap to assert that we need a 40k + capacity.
Can UCC economists stan up to the UUJ economist? Who's rioght in the battle of ecademics?

Point 3:

Did the report study the geographic origin of fans travelling to any proposed stadium?
Again looking at 2005 attendance figues, it's clear that the vast majority of fans would come from the south and west of Ulster to watch gaelic football.
For this vast majority, travelling to the maze is more convenient and offers less congestion for both the M1 and Belfast on match days.

Point 4:

The OWC crowd here reckon that their natural support base is about 25k (latest estimate from SammyG).
A 30k stadium would leave only a 5k capacity for away fans, as oppsed to 10k under the current Maze plan.
Surely halving the number of away fans totally wipes out half the benefit of the much hyped tourist benefit to the local economy.
Would NI PLC not be better off with 10k international visitors to the Maze than 5k to some Belfast stadium?


Any links available online to this report to gauge if it is accurate and comprehensive in its methodology?

[T Fearon]

Just thought I'd let you know,Professor Mike Smyth is a former Armagh Hurler. He of all people should know the dangers to Gaels of siting a stadium anywhere in Belfast outwith the nationalist West.

[Donagh]

Surely the cost of land on Ormeau would be more than the cost of land at Maze?

[snatter]

I believe a lot more land is being given over to the project at The Maze/Long Kesh.
Will the proposed stadium at Ormeau Park cater for Gaelic Games?

Fivetimes,

how about reading the thread?

Quote from: snatter on June 19, 2007, 10:15:58 PM

No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

This is a disgraceful lie. Either produce your evidence that the people behind the Durnien proposal and its supporters - including Nationalist councillors and the local SDLP MP - are anti-GAA, or withdraw it.

My evidence?
The plot is allegedly too small to accomodate gaelic games.
My source? None other than yourself earlier in this thread. As you said yourself

"And in any case, the proposed site is probably not big enough to stage Gaelic games,"

How therefore can my statement possibly be a lie?

If you deliberately develop a stadium on a plot that is too small to accomodate gaelic football, then it is clear that the development does not cater for gaelic. Pretty obvious I'd say.

Nowhere did I say that anybody was anti-GAA.

What I did say and I repeat:

afaik, at no stage were the GAA invited or approached in any way about the Durnian proposal.
To ignore the largest spectator sport in NI, and all the revenue they bring,  shows that they never had any intention of GAA involvment.
From the outset the Durnian proposal had a 22k capacity - much too low to be of any use to the GAA (again see 2005 figures), but just big enough to recreate another mini Windsor).

Oh, and as if you were in any doubt, and as Evil Genus has already pointed out in this thread - the Ormeau developemnt isn't (and never was) big enough to accommodate gaelic games.
Yep, despite being surrounded by open parkland, they managed to select a plot that was just too small.
No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

I make no apology for describing the durnien proposal an "orange dome".
If you deliberately exclude the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, then, rightly or wrongly, that is what it will be perceived as.
It is the exclusion of a whole section of the northern irish community that is the real disgrace.
Especially if the council ever gifted them 10's of millions.

Imho, this developer has made a strategic mistake in not attempting to court the GAA and persudade them that Ormeau (or another site) are suitable. They have missed out on an opportunity to avail of millions of once-off funding.

I can't explain why the development company has apparently chosen not to involve the GAA, only it can.

[Evil Genius]

The new provincial stadium must be built at Long Kesh. FFS look at the tailback on the M1 when there's a game at Casement attracting between 10,000 to 20,000 only!

Good grief! You've made some pretty idiotic remarks in your time, but that beats them all.

You say crowds of 10-20,000 at Casement cause serious tailbacks on the M1 for GAA matches, when at least some of those crowds will be living reasonably local to the stadium (so won't be using the M1), or will be accessing Casement from other directions utilising alternative routes.

How much WORSE will it be at the Maze, for crowds of up to 42,000 approaching the Maze from every direction, with all of them having to be funnelled onto the self-same M1, from where they will need to hit the bottleneck of a spur road to the stadium (incidentally yet to be built, at a cost of millions alone)?

And that is merely considering GAA matches which are mostly played in summer, on Sunday afternoons. How much worse will it be for soccer or rugby, in winter weather and the dark, when fans are using the M1 to attend Wednesday or Friday evening games, at the self-same time as the Belfast rush hour is piling onto the motorway?

With no public transport to the Maze to speak of, a 42,000 crowd will see up to 20,000 cars simultaneously trying to use what is effectively a two lane dual carriageway to the one spot. Not only that, but the total lack of infrastructure around the stadium will mean that they will all be aiming to arrive and depart at exactly the same time, unlike say, Clones or Windsor, where at least fans can "stagger" their arrival and departure, along a greater variety of access and egress routes.

If the Maze ever should be built, and if it should attract large crowds to start with, the ensuing traffic chaos alone is likely to be a severe deterrent to anyone coming back a second time.