R2 Qualifier Tyrone v Armagh

[BennyHarp]

It cannot be argued that Tyrone have 3 All-Irelands to Armagh's 1. Well done and all that. 2 things though...

2003, as someone has already mentioned, Marsden getting the line was pivotal. Phillip Jordan had a great career and was a great player, but what he did that day was an act of cowardice deliberately getting a fellow player sent off when he was the initial aggressor who charged at Marsden. Marsden only raised his hands in protection. That had a major bearing on the game and deflated Armagh as much as it boosted Tyrone. I was at a blitz in Moy a couple of years ago where he was giving out trophies to the young lads, I'm sure he is a nice enough guy but I could hardly bring myself to look at him...such is my feelings about the incident to this day.

2005, Tyronies saying that they were so sure that Tyrone were the better side and KNEW that they would beat Armagh. Maybe your memories of that game are different but there was one reason and one reason only why Tyrone won that game. It was not the brilliance of Tyrone or a master stroke from Harte...it was the inexplicable decision of Kernan to call Geezer ashore which gave Tyrone carte Blanche to move at will through our defence. Sean Cavanagh has publicly said so himself that this was the winning of the game.

So again well done, we are left with 'if onlys'.....

Around Sunday's game I find it hard to envisage and Armagh win. Not because we are not good enough per say but rather...

1. We are coming off the back of a defeat (7 day turnaround)
2. Tyrone are coming off a victory 14 day (turnaround)
3.  It's in Omagh

We need 'a man with a plan' who can make the most of what we have. Grimley will prob go, will it be Geezer? Will it be Tony Mac? someone else??

I love listening to the Armagh postings from these games - it makes me feel warm inside. Anyway, the bold bit, even if this was the case, then we still won the game as your manager shit his pants and panicked when the game was there to be won. Therefore, YOU WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH as a squad and management.

[Fuzzman]

Roll back to the board 2010
5 or 6 lines from the bottom for those of you who are lazy and won't read long posts

Some questions I STILL have 11 years later after the Marsden incident that I have asked before.
Under what grounds did he get his suspension appealed?
So having watched it several times since how can anyone still say that Marsden just raised his hands to in protection and Jordan ran into his closed fist? Did Jordan have his fists clenched or throw a punch?

To me Tyrone were 2nd best to Armagh in the semifinal having outplayed them twice before so I can totally understand how hard it was for them to lose that game.

I really miss the intensity of those games in recent years as nothing has come close to replacing that feeling of so much at stake and fear of losing but then coming out on top.

BY DECLAN BOGUE
d.bogue@gaeliclife.com
TWO weeks after Seamus McEnaney steps down from the Monaghan job, Paul Grimley gets his chance to talk about the botched appointment and reflect on his own experiences with the Armagh county board. In a wide-ranging interview, the Pearse Óg man also reflects on the 2002 All-Ireland, the ones that got away, and why he will probably never manage Armagh.

Declan Bogue: Your family were Armagh Harps, yet you played for Pearse Ógs.
Paul Grimley: My father played for Harps, and the twins [brothers Mark and John Grimley] also. I played one underage game in my life, and that was for the Harps - against the Ógs!
I transferred to the Ógs because my friends were there. Up until that point I had never played Gaelic football. I played a bit of soccer for Milford Everton, and Armagh Thistle in the Irish 'B' division, at centre-forward.

DB: How was it, playing in those Armagh city derby games and coming up against your brothers?
PG: It was funny. We played in the county final in 1985 and I lined out directly against Mark. At that time it was very difficult for me, we had a bit more experience and won out in a very droll affair. Good crowd at it, but a very poor game.

DB: But your paths always crossed. You were part of the Ógs management that won a county title in '92, and then you took Harps as manager to the county final in 1995.
PG: Yeah, we played Mullaghbawn in that final, and my brother Mark had hurt his ankle. The week before, we went down to Dublin to play a Bank of Ireland All-Star selection, and the pitch was brutal. He went over on his ankle, and it was one of the worst mistakes I ever made, letting that game go ahead. If we had him that day, things would have been different.

DB: Was it galling to watch Mullaghbawn go on to win Ulster after that?
PG: No, they were a mean side then. They were packed with very good players; McNultys, McGeeneys, Tierney, Neil Smyth, a lad McParland. Fair play to them.

DB: Shortly after that though, during the Crossmaglen dominance, you brought Madden to the county final, who were hanging out towards the bottom of division three.
PG: That was probably the most enjoyable time. Cross were All-Ireland champions, and we were two rungs below them, in danger of dropping even further. We beat Keady and Cullyhanna along the way, big wins and very tight affairs.
Madden had the best build-up possible, and we enjoyed the build up, because I realised that the final was as far as we could go. I took them to Sean Boylan, and he took them for a training session, I got the likes of Tony Scullion and Pete McGrath to take them for sessions. I wanted to make it memorable for them, knowing in my heart of hearts we would never be able to beat Cross. When they were marching around the field before the game, it dawned on me the difference in stature between the two sides, the physicality and size of Cross compared to us was noticeable. They were packed with county men, and seasoned campaigners.

DB: Where did the interest in coaching come from?
PG: I suppose I finished playing in 1991, and went into training the Pearse Óg side the following year, it was just something that was expected of you.

DB: And you took Ballymacnab to their first ever title - the Junior Championship in 1999.
PG: That was special. Colm Marley was the manager and I was coaching, but after the game there were grown men walking across the pitch crying their eyes out. Those were great days to look back on, and I will never forget them. It's fantastic to have been a part of those days.

DB: You played for Armagh during a fallow period, where plenty of good players gave long service for no reward, really.
PG: I was first on the panel in '79, and it would have been '89 when I quit. The panels changed completely between McKenna Cup, National League and Championship. Boys were brought in an out, if you did well in the county Championship you could find yourself on the county panel in the morning, and I missed out on the 1982 Ulster title like that. 
I was a very average county player, and I don't have any problem saying that. I enjoyed it though, and made good friends with the likes of Kieran McGurk, Martin McQuillan, Jim McCorry.

DB: Do you mind the stereotype of you and the brothers as being men who liked to turn games into, ahem, physical contests?
PG: What people don't understand is that different areas require different tools for the job! The era of the '80s and '90s, were characterised by big men, but if you look at say, Brian McGilligan, he wouldn't have been so successful unless he could play a fair bit. As the years went on, the game became different - when Peter Canavan came on the scene he was a full-forward, and people had never seen a small full-forward before.
People began to realise that playing a small man on a big fella could work. As the years went on, people then thought, well maybe we don't need a big full-back line, just good markers. But the big men back then maybe wouldn't fit into today's' game.

DB: What about the tunnel punch-ups, those stories don't be long growing into legends.
PG: Well, I was involved in that, I was there in Omagh at that time. As the years go by, they get talked about too much. There was a bit of a punch-up, but there was nothing really after that.

DB: Your brothers were offered contracts to go and play in Aussie Rules football, but turned them down.
PG: They were home birds. They were lukewarm offers, and both of them were engaged to be married the following year, so nothing came of it.

DB: Tell us about your time in Armagh - you brought the wives and girlfriends in for a meeting with all the players and management as soon as it became clear who was the new management.
PG: That was an idea Joe [Kernan] had. The wives would have to know the sacrifice the players would have to make, Joe believed in rewarding them. Players came under a lot of stress and Joe was very good at that man-management side of things.

DB: Do you feel you got that team at a good time?
PG: The opinion and feeling at the time was that team had its day, the two Brians got all they could out of them. Joe was the obvious candidate for the job because of his success with Cross, but people still said it was three years too late for him. The bones of that side went on for another six or seven years.

DB: That team defined themselves by the pursuit of the second All-Ireland, but did they make a rod for their own back?
PG: There's no getting away from the fact we only won one All-Ireland. That will always be a problem for myself, Joe, John McCloskey and the players. We will always have that burden and despite what people thought if us, despite what the media built us up to be, we still only won one All-Ireland, and we threw away at least two others.
We desperately wanted a second one. In 2003, Diarmuid Marsden's sending-off was such a blow for us. Fermanagh beat us in '04. We played Tyrone in a very controversial Ulster final in 2005, and knew we would not have to look too hard for them coming behind us. That semi-final in '05 was the hardest to take. The softest one that got away was '04, when we took our eye off the ball.

   
DB: When you talk about '04, in what way precisely did you take your eye off the ball?
PG: We were looking at Tyrone, and another eye on Fermanagh on the day. We didn't concentrate on our next 70 minutes, because we were thinking of the 70 minutes after it. I believe it had the same effect on Tyrone - they were so shocked that they lost their motivation. I'm only surmising here though I said it to Mickey Harte and I think he agreed.
We tried to guard against complacency that day, and I think Joe had talked since about players on their mobile phones on the bus and that carry-on. At the end of the day, we should have been more professional on that day, because we were known to be professional in every other context.
The following year we tried to get back and Tyrone beat us, and I believe that was the beginning of the end.

DB: In Oisín McConville's autobiography, he described you as a lunatic in training, and talked of your love of tackling grids. Yourselves and Tyrone introduced the tackle to a forwards' repertoire of skills.
PG: We believed the best form of defence was attack, because full-backs and corner backs were becoming much more mobile, Tyrone were the standard-bearers in that regard.
We had players like Diarmuid Marsden, Steven McDonnell and John McEntee who responded very well to it. Marsden in particular - he was the best tackler in the team. He always paired off with McGeeney, but Marsden was built like a middleweight boxer, with lightning fast hands. Kieran was robust and strong, but Diarmuid was very efficient in the tackle - very concentrated - and that gave us the idea to maul players.
Now, we weren't as good at the swarming tackle as Tyrone became, they brought it to a different level, but if we could get in around people, we could over turn a lot of ball.

[you take er!]

Not being good enough would be getting well beaten by 4,5,6+ points. You beat us once over 3 games in '05 and needed a last minute free to win it also, we handed you that advantage. The fact is the 2 teams were very good and well matched....1 win apiece and 1 draw your victory put you in an AI final. Our squad was much better in '05 than in '02 no doubt so was tyrone's. I'll give you the bit about management tho. 30,000 Armagh people (including Paul Grimley) felt it was wrong...JK felt it was right. he was wrong.

[you take er!]

Roll back to the board 2010
5 or 6 lines from the bottom for those of you who are lazy and won't read long posts

Some questions I STILL have 11 years later after the Marsden incident that I have asked before.
Under what grounds did he get his suspension appealed?
So having watched it several times since how can anyone still say that Marsden just raised his hands to in protection and Jordan ran into his closed fist? Did Jordan have his fists clenched or throw a punch?

To me Tyrone were 2nd best to Armagh in the semifinal having outplayed them twice before so I can totally understand how hard it was for them to lose that game.

I really miss the intensity of those games in recent years as nothing has come close to replacing that feeling of so much at stake and fear of losing but then coming out on top.

BY DECLAN BOGUE
d.bogue@gaeliclife.com
TWO weeks after Seamus McEnaney steps down from the Monaghan job, Paul Grimley gets his chance to talk about the botched appointment and reflect on his own experiences with the Armagh county board. In a wide-ranging interview, the Pearse Óg man also reflects on the 2002 All-Ireland, the ones that got away, and why he will probably never manage Armagh.

Declan Bogue: Your family were Armagh Harps, yet you played for Pearse Ógs.
Paul Grimley: My father played for Harps, and the twins [brothers Mark and John Grimley] also. I played one underage game in my life, and that was for the Harps - against the Ógs!
I transferred to the Ógs because my friends were there. Up until that point I had never played Gaelic football. I played a bit of soccer for Milford Everton, and Armagh Thistle in the Irish 'B' division, at centre-forward.

DB: How was it, playing in those Armagh city derby games and coming up against your brothers?
PG: It was funny. We played in the county final in 1985 and I lined out directly against Mark. At that time it was very difficult for me, we had a bit more experience and won out in a very droll affair. Good crowd at it, but a very poor game.

DB: But your paths always crossed. You were part of the Ógs management that won a county title in '92, and then you took Harps as manager to the county final in 1995.
PG: Yeah, we played Mullaghbawn in that final, and my brother Mark had hurt his ankle. The week before, we went down to Dublin to play a Bank of Ireland All-Star selection, and the pitch was brutal. He went over on his ankle, and it was one of the worst mistakes I ever made, letting that game go ahead. If we had him that day, things would have been different.

DB: Was it galling to watch Mullaghbawn go on to win Ulster after that?
PG: No, they were a mean side then. They were packed with very good players; McNultys, McGeeneys, Tierney, Neil Smyth, a lad McParland. Fair play to them.

DB: Shortly after that though, during the Crossmaglen dominance, you brought Madden to the county final, who were hanging out towards the bottom of division three.
PG: That was probably the most enjoyable time. Cross were All-Ireland champions, and we were two rungs below them, in danger of dropping even further. We beat Keady and Cullyhanna along the way, big wins and very tight affairs.
Madden had the best build-up possible, and we enjoyed the build up, because I realised that the final was as far as we could go. I took them to Sean Boylan, and he took them for a training session, I got the likes of Tony Scullion and Pete McGrath to take them for sessions. I wanted to make it memorable for them, knowing in my heart of hearts we would never be able to beat Cross. When they were marching around the field before the game, it dawned on me the difference in stature between the two sides, the physicality and size of Cross compared to us was noticeable. They were packed with county men, and seasoned campaigners.

DB: Where did the interest in coaching come from?
PG: I suppose I finished playing in 1991, and went into training the Pearse Óg side the following year, it was just something that was expected of you.

DB: And you took Ballymacnab to their first ever title - the Junior Championship in 1999.
PG: That was special. Colm Marley was the manager and I was coaching, but after the game there were grown men walking across the pitch crying their eyes out. Those were great days to look back on, and I will never forget them. It's fantastic to have been a part of those days.

DB: You played for Armagh during a fallow period, where plenty of good players gave long service for no reward, really.
PG: I was first on the panel in '79, and it would have been '89 when I quit. The panels changed completely between McKenna Cup, National League and Championship. Boys were brought in an out, if you did well in the county Championship you could find yourself on the county panel in the morning, and I missed out on the 1982 Ulster title like that. 
I was a very average county player, and I don't have any problem saying that. I enjoyed it though, and made good friends with the likes of Kieran McGurk, Martin McQuillan, Jim McCorry.

DB: Do you mind the stereotype of you and the brothers as being men who liked to turn games into, ahem, physical contests?
PG: What people don't understand is that different areas require different tools for the job! The era of the '80s and '90s, were characterised by big men, but if you look at say, Brian McGilligan, he wouldn't have been so successful unless he could play a fair bit. As the years went on, the game became different - when Peter Canavan came on the scene he was a full-forward, and people had never seen a small full-forward before.
People began to realise that playing a small man on a big fella could work. As the years went on, people then thought, well maybe we don't need a big full-back line, just good markers. But the big men back then maybe wouldn't fit into today's' game.

DB: What about the tunnel punch-ups, those stories don't be long growing into legends.
PG: Well, I was involved in that, I was there in Omagh at that time. As the years go by, they get talked about too much. There was a bit of a punch-up, but there was nothing really after that.

DB: Your brothers were offered contracts to go and play in Aussie Rules football, but turned them down.
PG: They were home birds. They were lukewarm offers, and both of them were engaged to be married the following year, so nothing came of it.

DB: Tell us about your time in Armagh - you brought the wives and girlfriends in for a meeting with all the players and management as soon as it became clear who was the new management.
PG: That was an idea Joe [Kernan] had. The wives would have to know the sacrifice the players would have to make, Joe believed in rewarding them. Players came under a lot of stress and Joe was very good at that man-management side of things.

DB: Do you feel you got that team at a good time?
PG: The opinion and feeling at the time was that team had its day, the two Brians got all they could out of them. Joe was the obvious candidate for the job because of his success with Cross, but people still said it was three years too late for him. The bones of that side went on for another six or seven years.

DB: That team defined themselves by the pursuit of the second All-Ireland, but did they make a rod for their own back?
PG: There's no getting away from the fact we only won one All-Ireland. That will always be a problem for myself, Joe, John McCloskey and the players. We will always have that burden and despite what people thought if us, despite what the media built us up to be, we still only won one All-Ireland, and we threw away at least two others.
We desperately wanted a second one. In 2003, Diarmuid Marsden's sending-off was such a blow for us. Fermanagh beat us in '04. We played Tyrone in a very controversial Ulster final in 2005, and knew we would not have to look too hard for them coming behind us. That semi-final in '05 was the hardest to take. The softest one that got away was '04, when we took our eye off the ball.

   
DB: When you talk about '04, in what way precisely did you take your eye off the ball?
PG: We were looking at Tyrone, and another eye on Fermanagh on the day. We didn't concentrate on our next 70 minutes, because we were thinking of the 70 minutes after it. I believe it had the same effect on Tyrone - they were so shocked that they lost their motivation. I'm only surmising here though I said it to Mickey Harte and I think he agreed.
We tried to guard against complacency that day, and I think Joe had talked since about players on their mobile phones on the bus and that carry-on. At the end of the day, we should have been more professional on that day, because we were known to be professional in every other context.
The following year we tried to get back and Tyrone beat us, and I believe that was the beginning of the end.

DB: In Oisín McConville's autobiography, he described you as a lunatic in training, and talked of your love of tackling grids. Yourselves and Tyrone introduced the tackle to a forwards' repertoire of skills.
PG: We believed the best form of defence was attack, because full-backs and corner backs were becoming much more mobile, Tyrone were the standard-bearers in that regard.
We had players like Diarmuid Marsden, Steven McDonnell and John McEntee who responded very well to it. Marsden in particular - he was the best tackler in the team. He always paired off with McGeeney, but Marsden was built like a middleweight boxer, with lightning fast hands. Kieran was robust and strong, but Diarmuid was very efficient in the tackle - very concentrated - and that gave us the idea to maul players.
Now, we weren't as good at the swarming tackle as Tyrone became, they brought it to a different level, but if we could get in around people, we could over turn a lot of ball.

Good interview...I fail to see your point though.

[Fuzzman]

I'm sure you'll work it out later UTI sorry UTE

I was actually looking for the article that was in the Irish Times or Examiner a few years back where Grimley does a very frank interview and said that had Conor Gormley not done that block then Armagh could have went on to dominate the noughties instead of Tyrone and Kerry.
It was a fair point tbh that had Armagh won two in a row they would have went down as a great time and would have taken massive confidence from that. They were peaking around those years and maybe if they had a bit more luck things could have turned out very different.
I think Tyrone's win in 2008 would not have happened if they hadn't the experience of winning in 03 & 05



Has there been a match winning block like this since?

[NaomhBridAbú]

I'm sure you'll work it out later UTI sorry UTE

I was actually looking for the article that was in the Irish Times or Examiner a few years back where Grimley does a very frank interview and said that had Conor Gormley not done that block then Armagh could have went on to dominate the noughties instead of Tyrone and Kerry.
It was a fair point tbh that had Armagh won two in a row they would have went down as a great time and would have taken massive confidence from that. They were peaking around those years and maybe if they had a bit more luck things could have turned out very different.
I think Tyrone's win in 2008 would not have happened if they hadn't the experience of winning in 03 & 05



Has there been a match winning block like this since?

I think that Armagh team doesn't really get the credit they deserve - they were excellent. I hear a lot of people saying that if there had been a different man managing the team, that then mage Armagh would have won more....hard to see how they could have won more Ulsters...they just came at a time when Tyrone were at their best

[brokencrossbar1]

Whatever about the sporting rivalries on Sunday after today's happenings there's gonna be some amount of pissed of people at the game from Tyrone and Armagh looking for blood of some description...Garth Brooks may be responsible for the biggest mucksavage tribal battle ever!!!! 

'blame it all on their (dyed) roots,
They showed up in (football) boots...'

[BennyHarp]

I'm sure you'll work it out later UTI sorry UTE

I was actually looking for the article that was in the Irish Times or Examiner a few years back where Grimley does a very frank interview and said that had Conor Gormley not done that block then Armagh could have went on to dominate the noughties instead of Tyrone and Kerry.
It was a fair point tbh that had Armagh won two in a row they would have went down as a great time and would have taken massive confidence from that. They were peaking around those years and maybe if they had a bit more luck things could have turned out very different.
I think Tyrone's win in 2008 would not have happened if they hadn't the experience of winning in 03 & 05



Has there been a match winning block like this since?

I think that Armagh team doesn't really get the credit they deserve - they were excellent. I hear a lot of people saying that if there had been a different man managing the team, that then mage Armagh would have won more....hard to see how they could have won more Ulsters...they just came at a time when Tyrone were at their best

I agree actually, Kernan led them to the promised land and kept them exceptionally competitive for a number of years. Unfortunately for them it came along at a time when Tyrone just had a team that were that little bit better. With all joking aside Armagh were Tyrone's main competitors for Sam during those years, not Kerry, and had the kick of the ball went the other way in 05 I'm pretty sure Armagh would have beaten Kerry in the final too ...... And I would have been cheering them on to do so.

[red hander]

Know I'm probably going over old ground here,but as Joe Kernan said in his book,without a shadow of a doubt had Marsden stayed on the field in 03 Armagh's traditionally strong finish would have made it two Sams in a row, and the 05 semi could have gone either way.

Tyrone's legacy of one All Ireland win proper and two back doors was puke football in a horrific era for our native games from which we are only beginning to emerge.Was there ever an uglier game than the 2003 All Ireland semi final.Contrast this with the late great Jock Stein's comments after Lisbon when he said that it was the way his side won the European Cup (pure beautiful inventive football) that gave him more pride and pleasure than merely winning it.

I will be surprised if Tyrone don't win on Sunday,but it matters little as both sides are well off the Ulster pace never mind All Irelands.

The finals of 2005 and 2008 were two of the best All-Ireland finals of the last 30 years. Parroting the bullshit perpetrated by a jealous idiot on RTE after one match in 2003 when his beloved Kerry were handed their arses by Tyrone (and it wouldn't be the only time in that era) is a pathetic excuse for that Armagh team's 'failure to fulfil its potential'. Fact is, in 2002, had Kerry not arrogantly thought the AI final was already over at half-time, you wouldn't have very luckily won the only Sam you're ever going to win.

[Syferus]

Ye lads make the rest of us look civilised. Even Meath.

[Throw ball]

Ye lads make the rest of us look civilised. Even Meath.

Not often I would agree with you!

Enough of history. It causes enough problems. Any idea how teams will match up on Sunday? Will Harte be missed? Do Armagh have enough recovery time? As an Armagh man a real nightmare would be to beat Tyrone and then draw Down with a 6 day turn around. We will probably fall in one of the next two weeks. If we don't we could have potential for the next couple of years.

[Zip Code]

Know I'm probably going over old ground here,but as Joe Kernan said in his book,without a shadow of a doubt had Marsden stayed on the field in 03 Armagh's traditionally strong finish would have made it two Sams in a row, and the 05 semi could have gone either way.

Tyrone's legacy of one All Ireland win proper and two back doors was puke football in a horrific era for our native games from which we are only beginning to emerge.Was there ever an uglier game than the 2003 All Ireland semi final.Contrast this with the late great Jock Stein's comments after Lisbon when he said that it was the way his side won the European Cup (pure beautiful inventive football) that gave him more pride and pleasure than merely winning it.

I will be surprised if Tyrone don't win on Sunday,but it matters little as both sides are well off the Ulster pace never mind All Irelands.

The finals of 2005 and 2008 were two of the best All-Ireland finals of the last 30 years. Parroting the bullshit perpetrated by a jealous idiot on RTE after one match in 2003 when his beloved Kerry were handed their arses by Tyrone (and it wouldn't be the only time in that era) is a pathetic excuse for that Armagh team's 'failure to fulfil its potential'. Fact is, in 2002, had Kerry not arrogantly thought the AI final was already over at half-time, you wouldn't have very luckily won the only Sam you're ever going to win.

It really does hurt you Armagh won it first and showed Tyrone what it takes to win an All-Ireland.  You should be thanking Armagh instead of slagging them - you must really hurt inside.   

[Fuzzman]

Yeah Red Hand I bet inside deep down you're hurting.
You with yer wan real AI and that done with diving, cheating, puke football and aul baldy lads.
When I think of it I'm embarrassed myself.
Can we give them back?

[JP]

I'm thinking how special of an era that was for Armagh And Tyrone. For both teams outside the traditional powerhouses to produce two great teams at the same time was exceptional.

Outside the traditional rivalries Kerry/Cork, Galway/Mayo, Dublin/Meath has there ever been as intense neighbourly rivalry with so much on the line?

I suppose the closest we have to it now is the developing Donegal/Monaghan rivalry.

[red hander]

Know I'm probably going over old ground here,but as Joe Kernan said in his book,without a shadow of a doubt had Marsden stayed on the field in 03 Armagh's traditionally strong finish would have made it two Sams in a row, and the 05 semi could have gone either way.

Tyrone's legacy of one All Ireland win proper and two back doors was puke football in a horrific era for our native games from which we are only beginning to emerge.Was there ever an uglier game than the 2003 All Ireland semi final.Contrast this with the late great Jock Stein's comments after Lisbon when he said that it was the way his side won the European Cup (pure beautiful inventive football) that gave him more pride and pleasure than merely winning it.

I will be surprised if Tyrone don't win on Sunday,but it matters little as both sides are well off the Ulster pace never mind All Irelands.

The finals of 2005 and 2008 were two of the best All-Ireland finals of the last 30 years. Parroting the bullshit perpetrated by a jealous idiot on RTE after one match in 2003 when his beloved Kerry were handed their arses by Tyrone (and it wouldn't be the only time in that era) is a pathetic excuse for that Armagh team's 'failure to fulfil its potential'. Fact is, in 2002, had Kerry not arrogantly thought the AI final was already over at half-time, you wouldn't have very luckily won the only Sam you're ever going to win.

It really does hurt you Armagh won it first and showed Tyrone what it takes to win an All-Ireland.  You should be thanking Armagh instead of slagging them - you must really hurt inside.   

There's any amount of teams who won it before us, including the inbreds, why do you think the buckfast brigade winning it before Tyrone would bother me in the slightest ... it really is a tenuous thing to hold onto just out of jealousy of your more illustrious neighbours