New GAA Website: www.grassrootsgaa.ie

[Lone Shark]

If it was the case that you had high level editors at the other end who were working with your copy, making suggested changes, and highlighting areas in which you can improve your writing, then perhaps. However that would be highly unusual for a website such as this, while a quick look at the first few reports on the site would suggest that this certainly doesn't seem to be happening.

Again I'm not saying this as a criticism in the sense that people who enjoy writing about games might appreciate the outlet, and in many cases there will be match reports here that wouldn't be available elsewhere, so readers won't be too worried about things like an excessive dependence on cliches, mixed tenses and poor syntax, since they're getting the general gist of what went on. Neither am I saying that I'm a paragon of virtue in this regard, and that's certainly not the case when speed is of the essence, as is the case 90% of the time.

However as you know yourself from coaching young lads in football, the only way lads would learn would be if they were being shown the right way to do things and carefully monitored from then on. You can't build competence by just churning out copy, firing it into a spell checker and letting that be that. 

[AZOffaly]

I don't know is there a feedback section. That might iron out a few kinks And if cliches and poor syntax were a problem, every paper in the country would be shutting down their sports departments in the morning

[Lone Shark]

I don't know is there a feedback section. That might iron out a few kinks And if cliches and poor syntax were a problem, every paper in the country would be shutting down their sports departments in the morning

Feedback from random people is generally not what you want though - and no student of the English language is going to take time out from their day to highlight how you could have presented your story in a better fashion. All you'll get in a feedback section is comment regarding the match in question, at best.

As for the latter point, I couldn't agree more. However it is definitely the case that in the modern environment, the ability to churn out copy at speed definitely trumps the ability to produce a well written piece in a more reasonable amount of time. Either way, my point stands - a young writer with aspirations to do this for a living won't learn much by contributing to a site like this - they would earn a lot more by getting involved with a local newspaper, and as I've mentioned, that's a lot easier to do than people think, if you're willing to work for free.

None of this is me discouraging people from getting involved with the site if they're interested in writing match reports for their own enjoyment. I just don't like the idea of hinting to somebody that they will benefit professionally from it.

[Club Scene]

Cillian good luck with your venture but this "build your portfolio" shyte really gets to me. You're running this site with the long-term intention of making money and looking for people to work for you for free in the meantime.

Thanks for your comment. As Im sure you can understand, a huge number of hours go into running a website like this each week. The initial aim is to grow the site into a useful and popular resource for people to enjoy. It would be impossible to run the site at present if we were paying contributors. In fact, a site like this will most likely never make enough money to pay contributors, the market just isnt big enough.

Anyone who is currently writing for the site has approached us off their own bat in the knowledge that we are not in a position to pay contributors. Why? Because they are looking to 'build their portfolio' and get exposure to the working life of a journalist and build contacts. I too used to be a student journalist and would have jumped at the opportunity to get my name out there and get my byline on regular articles averaging around 800 hits, in the knowledge that it is very difficult to get your foot in the door anywhere else, especially for paid work.

The work is on a casual basis with very little time pressure. There is in no way any sort of pulling the wool over people's eyes in relation to this. We have been very forthright about this since day one.

There is no obligation for anyone to write for the site. However, we are always delighted when we get new people interested because it improves the site going forward.

Cilian

As somebody who does this for a living, I'd have no problem with you making it clear that it's unpaid, since a lot of people are happy to write up match reports on a hobby basis. However I wouldn't mislead people into thinking that it'll be a great boost to them career wise - I've worked with nearly all national GAA editors at this stage, as well as a good chunk of the local ones, and in the vast, vast majority of cases, online content is not seen as any feather in the cap at all. They are well aware that there are countless sites that will take content for free, regardless of quality, and that getting your name on a byline is really not that big a deal. Getting into a local paper (and again, that's not hard to do if you're willing to work for free) is infinitely more valuable.

Please don't mislead impressionable young students into thinking that this will help "build a portfolio". As you say, of course a site like that can't afford to pay (though I note that you do have ads on the site all the same) and no-one with the slightest awareness of these things would expect that you would. But anyone writing for you will be doing so as a hobby, there would be countless better ways to spend their time if writing as a career is their goal.

Incidentally:

get exposure to the working life of a journalist

The work is on a casual basis with very little time pressure.

This sums it up for me. If you ask any editor who commissions match report articles, the number one criterion for them is to be able to deliver copy absurdly fast. A 300 word report is expected to be in within five minutes of the final whistle, a 700 word report with quotes from management is expected within an hour. Depressing though this is, if you can meet this deadline and you write the entire thing in text speak, you're likely to get the job over someone who can deliver exquisite prose but struggles to churn it out at the same speed. I weep at the state of the profession on account of this, but that's the truth of it.

Please don't pretend that this will be a foot into the door of paid work, it just won't.

For a person of your undoubted calibre and experience, I find it interesting that you are using words like pretend and mislead in relation to my original post. By me saying that someone can build up their portfolio and experience by writing for the site, you assert that I in some way, am pulling the wool over people's eyes and wasting their time. So, by offering people a chance to write for a decent sized audience and get out into the field and meet managers and players and build up their contacts lists, I am somehow misleading people.

If you can show me where I have said that people who write for us will be top of the line for job interviews in the field or where I have stated that writing for the site will be a golden ticket into their dream sports journalism job, then I will gladly hold my hands up and say you have a fair point. The fact of the matter is that you won't find said quotes, because it has never been mentioned or implied.

The reason the site exists is because, up to this point, the coverage of club games in Dublin was poor at best. The response we've had from clubs, managers, players and the vast majority of GAA fans we have spoken to, is that the site provides them with a way to keep in touch with the club scene and that they enjoy the reports and feature articles. The feedback from our contributors is that they feel they are learning as they go and that the experience is already beginning to improve their confidence in their writing also.

Now I'm certainly not expecting to put esteemed journalists like yourself out of jobs with our quality of writing, but to say that there is no benefit for a student journalist in writing for the site is outrageous. You state that they would be far better off writing for a local newspaper and that may very well be the case. But I've never said anything to the contrary. Nor have I said that writing for us will be more beneficial than writing for a local paper. The fact is that people will choose what they want to do and what they are most comfortable with. We are merely putting our hand up as an option, that's all.

[Lone Shark]

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Firstly, you're using words like "esteemed", "Calibre" and "experience" to describe me, when I'm not sure you even know who I am, and if you did, I'd be doubly baffled that you felt such terms were appropriate. It reads as if it's written sarcastically, though obviously I can't know your mind so I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and let it slide.

It's odd how you accuse me of misquoting you, and do so by in turn misquoting me. I didn't say you were wasting anyone's time, nor did I use phrases like golden ticket or top of the line - in fact I pointed out that a lot of people will want to do this for a hobby, and defended you when you said that this venture was not a money-making one and so you couldn't afford to pay people. However you did make comments like this:

(Perfect for anyone looking to build their portfolio for a career in journalism)

as well as the "exposure to the working life of a journalist" remark which is quoted above, both of which, on a purely factual level, are not accurate. If you want to build a portfolio, there are many better ways to do it, in the eyes of those that matter most, i.e. commissioning editors. If you want to get used to the working life of a journalist, then going out to matches and covering them "with no time pressure" (again your own words) is a million miles away from the reality of the situation. Again I say very sadly, to make a living in this business, and I'm barely managing to do it with the help of my betting background, it's about speed and trying to create stories where none really exists, largely by hounding players into saying nothing of substance and trying to twist it into news. It's horrible and I personally don't engage in that aspect of the job, but I can only do that because I get the bulk of my work from other sources. Most freelancers will tell you that the only way to make money is to sell a steady stream of non-stories like that.

Again I say that I think there is great merit in what you're doing as a project, but if I was giving a guiding hand to a budding young hack, I just feel there would be much better ways to spend your time, creating output that might actually stand to them. Now of course if those contributors feel that they are benefiting from it, then great - may they continue to do so. I just don't see how it is the case myself, in the absence of an experienced editor working with them and helping them to develop as rounded individuals and to show them how the industry actually works.

You are definitely correct when you say that Dublin club games are often poorly covered given their stature, and that this site has the potential to be of real service to people. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it will only last as a labour of love - I don't believe you will ever monetise it. Of course that's just my two cents and I've no doubt ye've studied that in depth, so either ye've hit on something that I've missed, or ye're quite happy to continue knowing that it'll never earn anything.

I'm certainly not worried about anyone putting me out of a job - the job as it s currently constituted probably won't even exist in a decade's time anyway, and there will always be a steady stream of young writers coming on stream to keep me on my toes - regardless of the source! Personally I'd be delighted to see more young people getting stuck into it, that's as it should be. There are a few dinosaurs in the industry out there who feel that their territory should be sacrosanct, but thankfully they're being phased out. If a younger writer comes along who can do the job better than I can, then he/she deserves the work and it's up to me to improve my game in turn. All I was saying is that in terms of trying to improve a CV or build a portfolio, this will be of negligible value to anyone, so I just don't think you should present it as such - that's all.

I get at least one email a fortnight from various new websites, offering me the chance to write for free, invariably promising ethereal things such as exposure, profile and so on. I don't get these mails because I'm any good, I get them for the same reason I get emails offering me penny stock tips and $10 million dollars for helping a Nigerian banker get money out of the country - that if these people throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick. My only reason for commenting was that it appeared, based on the quotes above, that you were doing the same - promising people non-monetary rewards, when in actual fact the honest way to pitch it would have been a nice hobby and a chance to be part of a website that hopefully, will grow into something really significant.

[AZOffaly]

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Firstly, you're using words like "esteemed", "Calibre" and "experience" to describe me, when I'm not sure you even know who I am, and if you did, I'd be doubly baffled that you felt such terms were appropriate. It reads as if it's written sarcastically, though obviously I can't know your mind so I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and let it slide.

It's odd how you accuse me of misquoting you, and do so by in turn misquoting me. I didn't say you were wasting anyone's time, nor did I use phrases like golden ticket or top of the line - in fact I pointed out that a lot of people will want to do this for a hobby, and defended you when you said that this venture was not a money-making one and so you couldn't afford to pay people. However you did make comments like this:

(Perfect for anyone looking to build their portfolio for a career in journalism)

as well as the "exposure to the working life of a journalist" remark which is quoted above, both of which, on a purely factual level, are not accurate. If you want to build a portfolio, there are many better ways to do it, in the eyes of those that matter most, i.e. commissioning editors. If you want to get used to the working life of a journalist, then going out to matches and covering them "with no time pressure" (again your own words) is a million miles away from the reality of the situation. Again I say very sadly, to make a living in this business, and I'm barely managing to do it with the help of my betting background, it's about speed and trying to create stories where none really exists, largely by hounding players into saying nothing of substance and trying to twist it into news. It's horrible and I personally don't engage in that aspect of the job, but I can only do that because I get the bulk of my work from other sources. Most freelancers will tell you that the only way to make money is to sell a steady stream of non-stories like that.

Again I say that I think there is great merit in what you're doing as a project, but if I was giving a guiding hand to a budding young hack, I just feel there would be much better ways to spend your time, creating output that might actually stand to them. Now of course if those contributors feel that they are benefiting from it, then great - may they continue to do so. I just don't see how it is the case myself, in the absence of an experienced editor working with them and helping them to develop as rounded individuals and to show them how the industry actually works.

You are definitely correct when you say that Dublin club games are often poorly covered given their stature, and that this site has the potential to be of real service to people. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it will only last as a labour of love - I don't believe you will ever monetise it. Of course that's just my two cents and I've no doubt ye've studied that in depth, so either ye've hit on something that I've missed, or ye're quite happy to continue knowing that it'll never earn anything.

I'm certainly not worried about anyone putting me out of a job - the job as it s currently constituted probably won't even exist in a decade's time anyway, and there will always be a steady stream of young writers coming on stream to keep me on my toes - regardless of the source! Personally I'd be delighted to see more young people getting stuck into it, that's as it should be. There are a few dinosaurs in the industry out there who feel that their territory should be sacrosanct, but thankfully they're being phased out. If a younger writer comes along who can do the job better than I can, then he/she deserves the work and it's up to me to improve my game in turn. All I was saying is that in terms of trying to improve a CV or build a portfolio, this will be of negligible value to anyone, so I just don't think you should present it as such - that's all.

I get at least one email a fortnight from various new websites, offering me the chance to write for free, invariably promising ethereal things such as exposure, profile and so on. I don't get these mails because I'm any good, I get them for the same reason I get emails offering me penny stock tips and $10 million dollars for helping a Nigerian banker get money out of the country - that if these people throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick. My only reason for commenting was that it appeared, based on the quotes above, that you were doing the same - promising people non-monetary rewards, when in actual fact the honest way to pitch it would have been a nice hobby and a chance to be part of a website that hopefully, will grow into something really significant.

Now now, false modesty and all that

[Club Scene]

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Firstly, you're using words like "esteemed", "Calibre" and "experience" to describe me, when I'm not sure you even know who I am, and if you did, I'd be doubly baffled that you felt such terms were appropriate. It reads as if it's written sarcastically, though obviously I can't know your mind so I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and let it slide.

It's odd how you accuse me of misquoting you, and do so by in turn misquoting me. I didn't say you were wasting anyone's time, nor did I use phrases like golden ticket or top of the line - in fact I pointed out that a lot of people will want to do this for a hobby, and defended you when you said that this venture was not a money-making one and so you couldn't afford to pay people. However you did make comments like this:

(Perfect for anyone looking to build their portfolio for a career in journalism)

as well as the "exposure to the working life of a journalist" remark which is quoted above, both of which, on a purely factual level, are not accurate. If you want to build a portfolio, there are many better ways to do it, in the eyes of those that matter most, i.e. commissioning editors. If you want to get used to the working life of a journalist, then going out to matches and covering them "with no time pressure" (again your own words) is a million miles away from the reality of the situation. Again I say very sadly, to make a living in this business, and I'm barely managing to do it with the help of my betting background, it's about speed and trying to create stories where none really exists, largely by hounding players into saying nothing of substance and trying to twist it into news. It's horrible and I personally don't engage in that aspect of the job, but I can only do that because I get the bulk of my work from other sources. Most freelancers will tell you that the only way to make money is to sell a steady stream of non-stories like that.

Again I say that I think there is great merit in what you're doing as a project, but if I was giving a guiding hand to a budding young hack, I just feel there would be much better ways to spend your time, creating output that might actually stand to them. Now of course if those contributors feel that they are benefiting from it, then great - may they continue to do so. I just don't see how it is the case myself, in the absence of an experienced editor working with them and helping them to develop as rounded individuals and to show them how the industry actually works.

You are definitely correct when you say that Dublin club games are often poorly covered given their stature, and that this site has the potential to be of real service to people. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it will only last as a labour of love - I don't believe you will ever monetise it. Of course that's just my two cents and I've no doubt ye've studied that in depth, so either ye've hit on something that I've missed, or ye're quite happy to continue knowing that it'll never earn anything.

I'm certainly not worried about anyone putting me out of a job - the job as it s currently constituted probably won't even exist in a decade's time anyway, and there will always be a steady stream of young writers coming on stream to keep me on my toes - regardless of the source! Personally I'd be delighted to see more young people getting stuck into it, that's as it should be. There are a few dinosaurs in the industry out there who feel that their territory should be sacrosanct, but thankfully they're being phased out. If a younger writer comes along who can do the job better than I can, then he/she deserves the work and it's up to me to improve my game in turn. All I was saying is that in terms of trying to improve a CV or build a portfolio, this will be of negligible value to anyone, so I just don't think you should present it as such - that's all.

I get at least one email a fortnight from various new websites, offering me the chance to write for free, invariably promising ethereal things such as exposure, profile and so on. I don't get these mails because I'm any good, I get them for the same reason I get emails offering me penny stock tips and $10 million dollars for helping a Nigerian banker get money out of the country - that if these people throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick. My only reason for commenting was that it appeared, based on the quotes above, that you were doing the same - promising people non-monetary rewards, when in actual fact the honest way to pitch it would have been a nice hobby and a chance to be part of a website that hopefully, will grow into something really significant.

I respect your opinion as you clearly have a decent background in the industry. However, the thing that I'm unhappy about is that you call into question my honesty and integrity. I can assure you, my quote about offering people a chance to build experience and their portfolio is wholeheartedly meant as an honest and open statement and nothing more. No pulling the wool over people's eyes or anything else of that nature. I accept that it may not be the number one way of gaining experience, it is however, an opportunity for people to dip their toe into the industry nonetheless. No one is holding anyone to ransom or promising the moon and stars. Given the volume of emails you have been receiving about working for free etc, I can accept that your cynical attitude towards my original post is possibly as a result of your exposure to this. I'll leave it at that anyway...thanks for your comments as it does open up an interesting debate. Best of luck for the future.

Cilian

[Ohtoohtobe]

To be honest lads I can't be bothered reading all the posts but I'll just clarify my original point.
Cillian I'm just increasingly annoyed by this phenomenon. There are tens of thousands of websites out there offering the "opportunity" to work for free in order to "get a foot in the door" and "build a portfolio".
I'm a journo myself and while I don't do much GAA work anymore I can tell anyone that writing for free for start-up websites will do nothing for your career. That's not your fault Cillian but I do think it's inaccurate to paint it as a kick-start for a career. What it really is is writing match reports as a hobby and that's fine, as long as everyone involved is clear that that's what it is.
I just feel sorry for anyone trying to get into journalism who is left writing a heap of copy for free for websites few people read in the hopes that it will lead to a job somewhere. It won't. I miss the days when someone with the ability to do such a job could "build a portfolio" and "get their foot in the door" while getting paid.

[INDIANA]

To be honest lads I can't be bothered reading all the posts but I'll just clarify my original point.
Cillian I'm just increasingly annoyed by this phenomenon. There are tens of thousands of websites out there offering the "opportunity" to work for free in order to "get a foot in the door" and "build a portfolio".
I'm a journo myself and while I don't do much GAA work anymore I can tell anyone that writing for free for start-up websites will do nothing for your career. That's not your fault Cillian but I do think it's inaccurate to paint it as a kick-start for a career. What it really is is writing match reports as a hobby and that's fine, as long as everyone involved is clear that that's what it is.
I just feel sorry for anyone trying to get into journalism who is left writing a heap of copy for free for websites few people read in the hopes that it will lead to a job somewhere. It won't. I miss the days when someone with the ability to do such a job could "build a portfolio" and "get their foot in the door" while getting paid.

In fairness all jobs are badly paid to begin with. In my gig I earned buttons for about the five years as an apprentice. Wasn't even minimum wage. The media is all moving online and that's not anyones fault. And it's not this websites fault.
I have no affiliation with this website but the coverage of club games in Dublin is shocking. Biggest gaa county in Ireland and you wouldn't know what happens in a club game from one week to the other.
At least this tries to fill the sizeable gap. Doing a good job in my view and the criticism is way overboard.

[heffo]

Think the site is great personally. I know a girl who's a journalism student who's doing a few reports for it and even if editors won't pay much future heed to getting reports published, surely anyone doing the reports is going to make contacts covering games and events and it surely cant hurt their prospects..

[orangeman]

Teamtalk mag in Tyrone provide this service on their website and it's top class.

[J OGorman]

Think the site is great personally. I know a girl who's a journalism student who's doing a few reports for it and even if editors won't pay much future heed to getting reports published, surely anyone doing the reports is going to make contacts covering games and events and it surely cant hurt their prospects..

absolutely. Surely if any budding journalists have the likes of this or any similar site / blog on their CV, an editor takes a look and knows if he / she is worth their salt. Established journo's etc will always circle the wagons

Good luck with the site.

[INDIANA]

Think the site is great personally. I know a girl who's a journalism student who's doing a few reports for it and even if editors won't pay much future heed to getting reports published, surely anyone doing the reports is going to make contacts covering games and events and it surely cant hurt their prospects..

Totally agree Heffo. There was plenty of scope for someone else to do this for a long time now and if the lads do well off it good luck to them.

We've no genuine local paper or real local radio station in Dublin to cover the club game and this more then fills the gap for me anyway.

[BennyHarp]

As a outside observer looking in here - the criticism from a few lads seems way over the top and it looks like they are making a big issue of a few comments that any sane person would understand and work out for themselves. Seems like there may be a few chips on the shoulders of the lads who work in the industry. The site seems to be providing a good service and if people who wish to work in the industry get to know a few contacts from clubs, build relationships with players who may move on to the county scene then it may be worth their while - it certainly won't do any harm. Best of luck with the site lads, if it progresses like Teamtalk in Tyrone, then it has the potential to be an brilliant service.

[Syferus]

To be fair the rags are incredibly threatened by online, even in GAA circles at this stage. Most papers are losing so much money it feels like a matter of when rather than if some of the majors disappear.

I guess the problem for a journalist is it's hard to make a living at least mostly online but that is a future most outlets and writers have been trying and failing to face up to for two decades. Murdoch's pay wall idea isn't the answer either.