Poll

Are you in favour of the black card rule

Yes
0 (0%)
No
0 (0%)
Still undecided
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 17, 2014, 08:10:51 PM

Author Topic: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?  (Read 57505 times)

Walter Cronc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3327
  • UTW!
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2014, 10:31:22 AM »
Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal are f*cked.


BennyHarp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5137
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2014, 10:31:31 AM »
Indeed this 'lack of physicality' nonsense being spouted is just that... nonsense!

The Last match I was at was Derry v Dublin and a Dublin defender was waiting for the ball to come into his hands and Patsy Bradley got to the ball first and ploughed through the man. It was brilliant.

As I've said before late tackles, 3rd man tackles and drag downs are nothing to do with physicality and if these things are eradicated, the National league has shown that quality will improve!

I also don't think the lack of kick passing thing will work either. With the lack of pulling/dragging/3rd man tackles it pays to kick the ball rather than give lads the chance to run back and set up their defensive screen!

In regards to the defensive line a la Rugby League well we have had that since 2002 anyway so i don't think that's a major issue!

Under the new rules, if you run the ball you don't risk losing possession - kicking the ball does. If your playing the percentages you keep possession - you may be right, but my opinion is that the new rules won't see our games turn into a long kick passing spectacle. Indeed the defensive screen has been here since 2002 - wasn't that one of the things we were trying to get rid of. I think this is something that will get worse - defend in numbers, attack in numbers with men running off the shoulder. Rugby league without the tackling.
That was never a square ball!!

Zulu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7155
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2014, 10:36:58 AM »
Disagree, we've already seen a lot more kicking into the forwards and this will continue IMO. I think most of the top teams are now going out to score more than there opponents rather than concentrating on keeping their opponents score down. Besides, the game is always evolving and different teams will play in different ways so there's no right answer as to how things will develop. Bottom line here is the physicality is not being taken out and is a complete red herring and it's up to teams and players to learn how to defend within the rules and without the help of 13 of your team-mates.

muppet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25089
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2014, 10:50:32 AM »
Disagree, we've already seen a lot more kicking into the forwards and this will continue IMO. I think most of the top teams are now going out to score more than there opponents rather than concentrating on keeping their opponents score down. Besides, the game is always evolving and different teams will play in different ways so there's no right answer as to how things will develop. Bottom line here is the physicality is not being taken out and is a complete red herring and it's up to teams and players to learn how to defend within the rules and without the help of 13 of your team-mates.

The reality is all defending has been neutered by an ill-conceived blunt instrument. One mistimed tackle can see a player walk in the first minute. Why would anyone risk ending their season like that?

Expect very high scores in some games and teams running out of subs in others with refs who properly follow the rules. The latter refs will probably be crucified.
MWWSI 2017

BennyHarp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5137
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2014, 10:51:08 AM »
Disagree, we've already seen a lot more kicking into the forwards and this will continue IMO. I think most of the top teams are now going out to score more than there opponents rather than concentrating on keeping their opponents score down. Besides, the game is always evolving and different teams will play in different ways so there's no right answer as to how things will develop. Bottom line here is the physicality is not being taken out and is a complete red herring and it's up to teams and players to learn how to defend within the rules and without the help of 13 of your team-mates.

When was everyone defending as a team outside the rules ? Is it outside the rules now? There is a difference between the tackle, (ie. Shoulder charge and dispossession) and defensive strategies. What is wrong with setting a team up to defend in numbers if that is what you have to do to get the best possible result?
That was never a square ball!!

Black Card

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2014, 11:00:16 AM »
It has changed the game to a non physical gaelic lite type sport. I m sure soccer had to evolve like this to become the w bland yet palatable sporting soufflé it is today.  It's impossible to defend against running teams.  Really Finding it a turn off.

+1

Netball on speed.

++1

J OGorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2014, 11:01:21 AM »
Disagree, we've already seen a lot more kicking into the forwards and this will continue IMO. I think most of the top teams are now going out to score more than there opponents rather than concentrating on keeping their opponents score down. Besides, the game is always evolving and different teams will play in different ways so there's no right answer as to how things will develop. Bottom line here is the physicality is not being taken out and is a complete red herring and it's up to teams and players to learn how to defend within the rules and without the help of 13 of your team-mates.

When was everyone defending as a team outside the rules ? Is it outside the rules now? There is a difference between the tackle, (ie. Shoulder charge and dispossession) and defensive strategies. What is wrong with setting a team up to defend in numbers if that is what you have to do to get the best possible result?

nothing wrong, but as a spectacle there is no comparison to fast free flowing football

Zulu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7155
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2014, 11:08:23 AM »
Quote
The reality is all defending has been neutered by an ill-conceived blunt instrument. One mistimed tackle can see a player walk in the first minute. Why would anyone risk ending their season like that?

That's the kind of scaremongering we had prior to the black card being used but the league has shown that a legitimate but mistimed attempt at a tackle is unlikely to get you a black card. Besides, the art of tackling is timing it right so we should see defenders get better at it.

Quote
When was everyone defending as a team outside the rules ? Is it outside the rules now? There is a difference between the tackle, (ie. Shoulder charge and dispossession) and defensive strategies. What is wrong with setting a team up to defend in numbers if that is what you have to do to get the best possible result?

It isn't outside of the rules but it isn't particularly attractive to watch 14 players inside their own 45 while their opponents laterally hand pass the ball across the pitch trying to find an opening. That's very few peoples idea of good football. Nor would I call that the art of defending, when I coach our kids how to tackle it is 1 v 1 situations where the skills of movement and technical defending are what give you a chance, not that you'll have 4 teammates to help you out. The swarm defence was killing the art of defending as it's true purpose was to frustrate opponents and force them to make a bad pass or shot for goals. As a defender all you had to do was not foul, you didn't have to worry about dispossessing as such.

DUBSFORSAM1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1311
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2014, 11:10:26 AM »
Is high scoring the be all and end all of good football? I'd much prefer it when forwards have to work for their scores - a proper challenge and sorted the great forwards from the decent ones - the way competitive sport should be. I'm sick already of watching average enough players being given all day to kick scores and we are in danger of swaying things far too much in the favour of the forwards - give me Tyrone v Armagh 2005 AI semi final any day of the week.

If you make a proper challenge now you don't get black carded.....how is that not easily understood?

The difference the black card has made is that players aren't being blocked/checked off the ball or dragged down with no effort to play the ball etc or having their jerseys dragged back blatantly.....

The biggest problem is that for years with the blanked defence etc players weren't taught how to actually defend 1 on 1 or how to tackle properly and it's coming home to roost

DUBSFORSAM1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1311
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2014, 11:15:59 AM »
Indeed this 'lack of physicality' nonsense being spouted is just that... nonsense!

The Last match I was at was Derry v Dublin and a Dublin defender was waiting for the ball to come into his hands and Patsy Bradley got to the ball first and ploughed through the man. It was brilliant.

As I've said before late tackles, 3rd man tackles and drag downs are nothing to do with physicality and if these things are eradicated, the National league has shown that quality will improve!

I also don't think the lack of kick passing thing will work either. With the lack of pulling/dragging/3rd man tackles it pays to kick the ball rather than give lads the chance to run back and set up their defensive screen!

In regards to the defensive line a la Rugby League well we have had that since 2002 anyway so i don't think that's a major issue!

Under the new rules, if you run the ball you don't risk losing possession - kicking the ball does. If your playing the percentages you keep possession - you may be right, but my opinion is that the new rules won't see our games turn into a long kick passing spectacle. Indeed the defensive screen has been here since 2002 - wasn't that one of the things we were trying to get rid of. I think this is something that will get worse - defend in numbers, attack in numbers with men running off the shoulder. Rugby league without the tackling.

Did you see what happened Mayo when they tried to keep ball against Dublin? If you mark every player then you can't just retain possession by handpassing over and over.

AZOffaly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24637
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2014, 11:17:06 AM »
Disagree, we've already seen a lot more kicking into the forwards and this will continue IMO. I think most of the top teams are now going out to score more than there opponents rather than concentrating on keeping their opponents score down. Besides, the game is always evolving and different teams will play in different ways so there's no right answer as to how things will develop. Bottom line here is the physicality is not being taken out and is a complete red herring and it's up to teams and players to learn how to defend within the rules and without the help of 13 of your team-mates.

The reality is all defending has been neutered by an ill-conceived blunt instrument. One mistimed tackle can see a player walk in the first minute. Why would anyone risk ending their season like that?

Expect very high scores in some games and teams running out of subs in others with refs who properly follow the rules. The latter refs will probably be crucified.

An honest tackle which is mistimed should not result in a black card. A DELIBERATE pull down in any minute should result in one. That's what refs have to decide now.

You're still just pissed off about Ritchie Feeney's black card in March. That was cynical and a black card all day long, and rightly so.

BennyHarp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5137
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2014, 11:22:37 AM »
Quote
The reality is all defending has been neutered by an ill-conceived blunt instrument. One mistimed tackle can see a player walk in the first minute. Why would anyone risk ending their season like that?

That's the kind of scaremongering we had prior to the black card being used but the league has shown that a legitimate but mistimed attempt at a tackle is unlikely to get you a black card. Besides, the art of tackling is timing it right so we should see defenders get better at it.

Quote
When was everyone defending as a team outside the rules ? Is it outside the rules now? There is a difference between the tackle, (ie. Shoulder charge and dispossession) and defensive strategies. What is wrong with setting a team up to defend in numbers if that is what you have to do to get the best possible result?

It isn't outside of the rules but it isn't particularly attractive to watch 14 players inside their own 45 while their opponents laterally hand pass the ball across the pitch trying to find an opening. That's very few peoples idea of good football. Nor would I call that the art of defending, when I coach our kids how to tackle it is 1 v 1 situations where the skills of movement and technical defending are what give you a chance, not that you'll have 4 teammates to help you out. The swarm defence was killing the art of defending as it's true purpose was to frustrate opponents and force them to make a bad pass or shot for goals. As a defender all you had to do was not foul, you didn't have to worry about dispossessing as such.

The black card won't stop this. I stand to be corrected on this later in the year and will be happy to eat my words but teams will not go man to man come the biggest championship games in the summer and will resort to an even bigger retreat as it serves two purposes, firstly, protects the man against 1v1 and secondly it creates loads of runners for a counter attack. You can talk all you want about how you coach under 14s but the reality is that the odds are heavily stacked against the defenders - not because they can't foul now but because they aren't sure what they can do and they won't risk an early bath like Ritchie Feeney. So they will need even more protection than ever.

I've said it before, the tackle in Gaelic isn't effective if forwards can take 6 or 7 steps. And how many times have we saw clean shoulder charges be whistled up. Then what options does a defender have left?
That was never a square ball!!

blewuporstuffed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4105
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2014, 11:25:01 AM »
Again, I agree 100% with this Benny.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either

J OGorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2014, 11:26:50 AM »

AZOffaly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24637
    • View Profile
Re: So what do ye think of the black card rule now?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2014, 11:28:11 AM »
I agree about forwards taking steps. This seems to have crept in over the years as some sort of pseudo advantage rule, whereby a referee would allow a lad take a pile of steps if he was being fouled. That morphed into letting him take more steps if there was any contact at all.. That's something that does need to be addressed.

On the massed defence thing, it might work that way, I'm sure some teams will try it. But at the end of the day you have to score to win, and if they turn the ball over on the counter attacks, that's where gaps will appear. In the past someone like Donegal (not picking on them, every team did it) would counter attack, turn the ball over and foul immediately to let the cover defence get set up. That option is greatly reduced now.

Also, a key part of the blanket defence was to block runners. The illegal body check is now also eliminated.