Should amateur clubs meet the cost of championships games abroad?

[AZOffaly]

Zulu, you're resorting to insults earlier and earlier these days, relax man.

I've softened a bit on the GPA over the years, but I see where Seanie is coming from on some of these things. Raison d'etre might be the wrong phrase, as the raison d'etre is probably to look after intercounty players. However the way they have gone about that is clearly to distinguish clearly between Inter County activities and Club activities. Even the carefully used wording about 'promoting the Inter County game' during the trip to Notre Dame was reinforcing that impression that inter county was very much separate from the rest of the GAA.

[Keepthefaith93]

Ballinderry go this weekend and i would be surprised if 10000 euros covered half of their expenses. Ballinderry football club have had a big push on the last few years to raise money for the new pitch and are now having to go back to the same people (supporters/sponsers) to ask for more money.
Its bad enough that clubs are sent to England to play a bullshit match but that they have to pay for the pleasure of doing it is a joke.

[Keepthefaith93]

The GAA should be the ones paying for this trip, but in my opinion that should only cover the flights and travel expenses.  Can't see how feeding 30 fellas over two days should be factored in to the amount.  £10000 is only enough if thats equal to or greater than what it costs.

Are you serious?

[Zulu]

I only referred to MS as a crackpot because he clearly is, not only is trying to say the IC game isn't the financial generator for the GAA when even a visitor from Mars would quickly deduce it is but he has gone out of his way to turn this thread into a GPA/IC debate. We were discussing a club travel cost issue and MS has tried to start an argument about IC costs while spouting lies and mad hatter facts. Maybe I shouldn't rise to the bait but if he or anyone else wants to debate issues sensibly then I'm all for it but please don't post rubbish and not expect it to be pointed out.

[Bingo]

Zulu, I think you are understating the role of clubs and in particular how they are funding the Intercounty game.

As i said yesterday and I know for a fact, the monaghan club championships generate a lot of funding needed to run the county set ups. When they county team go fundraising, the clubs are their first port of call. To play club football, nothing is free - they pay for their insurance, the referees, entry fees and all other levys. For that they will play championship and earn further money for the county board.

County Centre of excellences - again in Monaghan this was paid by mix of funds - Croke Park grant income from IC game and rent of Croke park, a levy imposed on clubs to pay over 5 year and bank loan. For the honour of paying for this facility clubs are now expected to pay to use it, starting at circa €100 plus more for lights, showers etc.

Clubs rarely receive funds from Croke park for pitch or facilities developments. Only county grounds do get this from the larger pot and we received a good portion this year to put our ground as a Secondary county ground but we will be the last ground to receive funding for secondary county ground development in the country. This funding was for IC game and hosting them. When we host a county game or club championship game we will receive a % of the gate money - between 10-15% depending on game. There are another 30 clubs in money who don't and won't get this funding, they'll only get the same % if they host games. The share of gate receipts will pay our loans and maintenance to keep the ground at county ground standard.

Around the county the vast majority of clubs won't receive any of these grants. The only money they will receivce is if they host IC games and get share of gate money.

So i don't know how you can say clubs benefit from IC games or the money from concerts, Croke park games etc.

The county boards do put money back in at club level through coaching and games development but we could argue where this money comes from - in money part of it is paid by a grant from county council. Is the rest from IC gates or club championship gates or from monaghan supporters clubs etc.

The IC players of the future. Where are they coming from? The clubs and the nursery programmes they have put in place. How much is invested by clubs on players from 5 up to U16 when they will be then likely in development squads from U14 upwards. Serious man hours and resources put them there.

The GAA needs the club structures far more than the clubs need the IC game.

One point you made is the significant portion of people at IC games not attending club games. I think you over playing this point. Many may not attend club games but you can be sure that they are involved at club level. In my club we'd see lots of people involved and helping at juvenile level, attending club events, fundraising etc but alot won't attend senior games bar maybe later stages of championship. Alot who go to the senior games and club officials including players at senior level would have very little interest in county games as they don't like the route it is going and the damage it is doing at club level. They'll roll out for Ulster finals like last year but wouldn't get too excited.

There is a widening gap between clubs and county teams and if their isn't success then this will do damage.

[Zulu]

Ballinderry go this weekend and i would be surprised if 10000 euros covered half of their expenses. Ballinderry football club have had a big push on the last few years to raise money for the new pitch and are now having to go back to the same people (supporters/sponsers) to ask for more money.
Its bad enough that clubs are sent to England to play a bullshit match but that they have to pay for the pleasure of doing it is a joke.

Why is it a bullshit match? And why should the GAA pay for their post match meal? If Ballinderry have to go to Galway to play the All Ireland club semi final and decide to have a post match meal in a Galway hotel the GAA won't pay for it so why should they if it's in England?

[Zulu]

Zulu, I think you are understating the role of clubs and in particular how they are funding the Intercounty game.

As i said yesterday and I know for a fact, the monaghan club championships generate a lot of funding needed to run the county set ups. When they county team go fundraising, the clubs are their first port of call. To play club football, nothing is free - they pay for their insurance, the referees, entry fees and all other levys. For that they will play championship and earn further money for the county board.

County Centre of excellences - again in Monaghan this was paid by mix of funds - Croke Park grant income from IC game and rent of Croke park, a levy imposed on clubs to pay over 5 year and bank loan. For the honour of paying for this facility clubs are now expected to pay to use it, starting at circa €100 plus more for lights, showers etc.

Clubs rarely receive funds from Croke park for pitch or facilities developments. Only county grounds do get this from the larger pot and we received a good portion this year to put our ground as a Secondary county ground but we will be the last ground to receive funding for secondary county ground development in the country. This funding was for IC game and hosting them. When we host a county game or club championship game we will receive a % of the gate money - between 10-15% depending on game. There are another 30 clubs in money who don't and won't get this funding, they'll only get the same % if they host games. The share of gate receipts will pay our loans and maintenance to keep the ground at county ground standard.

Around the county the vast majority of clubs won't receive any of these grants. The only money they will receivce is if they host IC games and get share of gate money.

So i don't know how you can say clubs benefit from IC games or the money from concerts, Croke park games etc.

The county boards do put money back in at club level through coaching and games development but we could argue where this money comes from - in money part of it is paid by a grant from county council. Is the rest from IC gates or club championship gates or from monaghan supporters clubs etc.

The IC players of the future. Where are they coming from? The clubs and the nursery programmes they have put in place. How much is invested by clubs on players from 5 up to U16 when they will be then likely in development squads from U14 upwards. Serious man hours and resources put them there.

The GAA needs the club structures far more than the clubs need the IC game.

One point you made is the significant portion of people at IC games not attending club games. I think you over playing this point. Many may not attend club games but you can be sure that they are involved at club level. In my club we'd see lots of people involved and helping at juvenile level, attending club events, fundraising etc but alot won't attend senior games bar maybe later stages of championship. Alot who go to the senior games and club officials including players at senior level would have very little interest in county games as they don't like the route it is going and the damage it is doing at club level. They'll roll out for Ulster finals like last year but wouldn't get too excited.

There is a widening gap between clubs and county teams and if their isn't success then this will do damage.

In the main I don't disagree with any of that. This isn't black and white and as I said you can't separate club from county as they both feed into each other and take from each other.

We would be debating shades of grey on the crowds at IC games with no real way of proving a point one way or another but I've certainly seen many people at IC games who never got involved in their clubs in any way.

I coach at underage level so I'm all too aware of the time and effort put in by underage coaches but the IC game helps us attract the kids and keep them involved. If the choice was to play for your club in front of a handful of people or to be a professional rugby or soccer player on TV most kids would opt for the latter. The IC game provides us with the glamour that can fuel kids imaginations.

Many clubs do receive money from CP and can access significant funding for developing their facilities.

I'm not saying county teams aren't funded by clubs but to say clubs aren't helped by the IC scene is incorrect. Even the selling of lotto tickets etc. is helped by the IC game in some ways.

[Bingo]

In the main I don't disagree with any of that. This isn't black and white and as I said you can't separate club from county as they both feed into each other and take from each other.

We would be debating shades of grey on the crowds at IC games with no real way of proving a point one way or another but I've certainly seen many people at IC games who never got involved in their clubs in any way.

I coach at underage level so I'm all too aware of the time and effort put in by underage coaches but the IC game helps us attract the kids and keep them involved. If the choice was to play for your club in front of a handful of people or to be a professional rugby or soccer player on TV most kids would opt for the latter. The IC game provides us with the glamour that can fuel kids imaginations.

Many clubs do receive money from CP and can access significant funding for developing their facilities.

I'm not saying county teams aren't funded by clubs but to say clubs aren't helped by the IC scene is incorrect. Even the selling of lotto tickets etc. is helped by the IC game in some ways.

A 5/6 year old when they enter nursery programmes won't know IC football/hurling from International Conkers. If they are to play gaelic or hurling at that age it is down to parents and the local gaa club who will have structures in place and have piled resources into their club to make it an attractive and safe environment.

I would have serious questions how the IC attracts kids and parents at this age. As they grow up, they may focus more on the IC scene and it will be thier ambitions but 99% of parents don't arrive at u6 nursery training with little Johnny so that he can be an IC player in 15 years time. He has a chance but its not the reason.

Can you please direct me the funding from CP for a club developing their facilities. As someone who was very heavily involved in getting funding for our development I know that funding is available for IC developments such as county grounds, H&S at county grounds, centres of excellence etc but have not seen any funding opportunities of we want to put an all-weather astro turf pitch in or build a weights gym etc, please direct me and not to the National Lottery funding which isn't gaa related.

You said that a large part of the money clubs get comes from IC scene. So you need to back this up and refrain from just calling a poster a "crackpot".

[Bingo]

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=206347

Another club looking to fund the weekend in the UK.

[deiseach]

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=206347

Another club looking to fund the weekend in the UK.

Duignan, whose quirky insights to hurling have made him a TV favourite

[Zulu]

A 5/6 year old when they enter nursery programmes won't know IC football/hurling from International Conkers. If they are to play gaelic or hurling at that age it is down to parents and the local gaa club who will have structures in place and have piled resources into their club to make it an attractive and safe environment.

I would have serious questions how the IC attracts kids and parents at this age. As they grow up, they may focus more on the IC scene and it will be thier ambitions but 99% of parents don't arrive at u6 nursery training with little Johnny so that he can be an IC player in 15 years time. He has a chance but its not the reason.

But keeping them involved is not simply down to the parents nor is it down to the club having a nice pitch. Again this isn't a one or the other issue but having the IC game to aspire to is a huge benefit to clubs in getting and keeping players. It isn't, of course, the only thing but it is a big help and I see this here in Britain. I firmly believe we would have three times as many kids if we were doing what we're doing in Ireland due to the fact that there is social status in playing GAA due, in the main, to IC. I see kids in the schools enjoying the game but unwilling to play with the club whereas they do play soccer, most of those kids would play football if they were in Ireland.

Can you please direct me the funding from CP for a club developing their facilities. As someone who was very heavily involved in getting funding for our development I know that funding is available for IC developments such as county grounds, H&S at county grounds, centres of excellence etc but have not seen any funding opportunities of we want to put an all-weather astro turf pitch in or build a weights gym etc, please direct me and not to the National Lottery funding which isn't gaa related.

I'm not based in Ireland so I can only reference the money I saw in my own clubs accounts a few years back from our county board, which if memory serves was from national league gate receipts though I couldn't swear on that. My understanding from speaking with our county secretary is that if your club raise money to facilities then the GAA will match that, they won't give 100% of it.

You said that a large part of the money clubs get comes from IC scene. So you need to back this up and refrain from just calling a poster a "crackpot".

I didn't say that so please don't misquote me, I said a large part of the GAA's revenue comes from the IC scene through gate receipts, sponsorship, and (indirectly) through concerts etc. that wouldn't be held in GAA grounds if we didn't need them big enough for IC games.

[Bingo]

And a large part of what clubs get comes from the IC game. It's a circular and you can't separate clubs from counties so it's a bit pointless trying to do so. The gate receipts, TV money and promotional tool the IC game generates more than justifies a healthy financial outlay on them. Croke Park wouldn't have €10k to give Emyvale only for the IC game. Anyway we're off on a bit of a tangent now but if my club was playing this weekend and we had to travel to Britain I'd be fairly happy with €10k.

Thats what you actually said, so aplogies for including money as it wasn't said but can be taken from it.

[Bingo]

You are nearly repeating exactly what Dessie said during the week on the importance of the IC game in being the GAA cash golden cow and attracting people to GAA.

Priceless   

[Zulu]

And a large part of what clubs get comes from the IC game. It's a circular and you can't separate clubs from counties so it's a bit pointless trying to do so. The gate receipts, TV money and promotional tool the IC game generates more than justifies a healthy financial outlay on them. Croke Park wouldn't have €10k to give Emyvale only for the IC game. Anyway we're off on a bit of a tangent now but if my club was playing this weekend and we had to travel to Britain I'd be fairly happy with €10k.

Thats what you actually said, so aplogies for including money as it wasn't said but can be taken from it.

That was a reference to your statement that..

A large part of the cost of running a county team in most counties comes from club championship, club affliations, sponsorship of club championships etc etc.

which isn't really true as the county sponsors, supporters clubs and fund raising events contribute far more in most counties.

Again, I'll make the point that GAA money, whether generated by clubs or counties helps both. You seem to be trying to say clubs fund everything which is patently nonsense. Of course they generate money for the county but the county also generates money for them I didn't think anyone would dispute that.

You are nearly repeating exactly what Dessie said during the week on the importance of the IC game in being the GAA cash golden cow and attracting people to GAA.

Priceless   

It's neither here nor there to me whether you accept that or not but gate receipt for 2012 were €26,781,105 so I think it's fair to say the IC scene does generate a few bob for the GAA and that doesn't include sponsorship or TV revenue which is fair to say would bring the total to over €30 million.

As for the effect it has on player retention well you can keep your head in the sand on that one if you like but my local rugby club lurched in and out of existence for many years and it could never sustain an underage side for an length of time until the last 5 or 6 years. It now apparently has a very vibrant underage scene as well as adult teams but I suppose the success of the provinces and greater TV exposure for rugby has nothing to do with it 

[Bingo]

Again, I'll make the point that GAA money, whether generated by clubs or counties helps both. You seem to be trying to say clubs fund everything which is patently nonsense. Of course they generate money for the county but the county also generates money for them I didn't think anyone would dispute that.

Well I would. Clubs solely fund IC but they contribute to it. Do IC contribute (and I'm talking pounds and pence, euros and cents) to clubs, no.

And I've no problem with that but I've a problem with people saying it. If you can prove me wrong, go ahead and referencing what a club secretary in Britian said isn't the reality for alot of clubs in Ireland.