Time to ditch a United Ireland and Build a Northern Irish Identity

[armaghniac]

Nally Stand asks for differences between him and a Monaghan man:

1) Monaghan man spends euros.

2) Monaghan man's affairs are dealt with by his Government which doesn't regard him as a foreign affair

3) Monaghan man doesn't live in an area of competiting sovereign allegiances.

4) Monaghan man doesn't have to put up with sectarian parades/ commemorations.

5) Monaghan man lives in a neighbourhood happily alongside neighbours of difference creeds/nationalities etc

6) Monaghan man can get RTE.

7) Monaghan man has been hit hard in the pocket (if he's not in Australia) this last few years due to government cutbacks, job losses.

4-7 would also apply to Crossmaglen man as would 1 to a large extent.

But the general point illustrates a tendency to justify partition by reference to the existence of partition. People are "different" because of currency, colour of number plate etc, when of course these "differences" are due to partition and would disappear when partition is ended. 

[The Iceman]

Its funny this could happen.
Protestants will deny the past - I have spoken to many "friends" who are completely brainwashed as to what went on during the "struggle" and why/how the occupied 6 exists. So to those boys anyone who thinks different is an ignorant taig.
Then you have these watered down "Irish" men and women who are tired and just want to live in peace and if thats under a Union Jack then ok I guess. They are slowly being affected by the rants of Jamie Bryson on the news and feeling sorry for the "craters" - sympathy leads to empathy and next thing you know they are celebrating the 12th of July again

Yeah  .... enjoy thanksgiving now wont you 

You presume to know anything about me Skull. For the record in my house, my kids know the real history behind the holiday and we don't celebrate any part of that. We celebrate our blessings from God and go to Mass and give thanks at the table for all that He has given us.

You also imply that you can't be an "Irish" man if you don't live in the country....technically then you're not one yourself?

[T Fearon]

But the general point illustrates a tendency to justify partition by reference to the existence of partition. People are "different" because of currency, colour of number plate etc, when of course these "differences" are due to partition and would disappear when partition is ended.

So you think Monaghan man who has been blessed with a life free from living with the outworkings of sectarianism and hatred, governed normally (for the most part) by a state he owes allegiance to,where the flying of flags and parades are of no issue etc, has exactly the same culture and outlook on life as a Tyrone man, who lives in close geographical proxmity, but whose life from a young age has been blighted?  I don't think so.

[red hander]

To quote that oul bastard who to all intents and purposes started the Troubles ... NEVER, NEVER, NEVER

I'm with Nally Stand on this one

[Applesisapples]

N.Irish culture could be fostered with a new neutral flag, song (instead of British or Irish national anthem), and emphasis on things that unite rather than divide.

A makey-uppy culture for a makey-uppy, plastic state! I think I'll just stick with my Irish identity.

Well said that man.

+1
I don't often comment on the political threads on here but I often read with interest. It was hard being a Catholic in NI during the 70s, 80s early 90s. I lived in the rural west at the time and had to put up with a mountain of grief. My sense of identity as an Irish man was something I had to cling very hard to during that time and I'll continue to do so in the future. I'll never be N. Irish. Ever!

I come from the rural east and that chimes with me...to quote Tony. There are regional cultural differences throughout Ireland so of course not all our traditions in the north will be the same as say Galway, but then Dublin is different too as is Cork. I can't see agreement on a shared NI identity as being achievable, but I accept that a UI as commonly thought of is unlikely. However I consider my self as Irish and from the north as do my children. We are steeped in the GAA and the place in which we live is centred around the GAA club and to a lesser extent now the church. I'd say that has more in common with a rural parish in Clare than it does with our local presbtry or COI parish.

[JP]

But the general point illustrates a tendency to justify partition by reference to the existence of partition. People are "different" because of currency, colour of number plate etc, when of course these "differences" are due to partition and would disappear when partition is ended.

So you think Monaghan man who has been blessed with a life free from living with the outworkings of sectarianism and hatred, governed normally (for the most part) by a state he owes allegiance to,where the flying of flags and parades are of no issue etc, has exactly the same culture and outlook on life as a Tyrone man, who lives in close geographical proxmity, but whose life from a young age has been blighted?  I don't think so.

Your points are for the most part invalid. As a South Armagh man I feel in no way Northern Irish in much the same way a man from Mayo wouldn't define his identity as Western Irish.

There is no sectarian and hatred as we are all the same community. There are no parades and the only flags are the odd tricolour which no one has a problem with.

Also being fairly young (twenties) I haven't been blighted from a young age due to where I live. As I am so close to the border I often spend euros and also have an Irish passport.

I don't see how on one hand you can argue that there is massive cultural difference between me and someone who lives a few miles away from me across the border, yet argue I can share a common identity with a flag protester from Ballymena.

Your argument just makes no sense to me.

[armaghniac]

So you think Monaghan man who has been blessed with a life free from living with the outworkings of sectarianism and hatred, governed normally (for the most part) by a state he owes allegiance to,where the flying of flags and parades are of no issue etc, has exactly the same culture and outlook on life as a Tyrone man, who lives in close geographical proxmity, but whose life from a young age has been blighted?  I don't think so.

Well the cure for that difference is not to perpetuate the dysfunctional arrangements that gave the Tyrone man a different outlook.

[Nally Stand]

Nally Stand asks for differences between him and a Monaghan man:

1) Monaghan man spends euros.

2) Monaghan man's affairs are dealt with by his Government which doesn't regard him as a foreign affair

3) Monaghan man doesn't live in an area of competiting sovereign allegiances.

4) Monaghan man doesn't have to put up with sectarian parades/ commemorations.

5) Monaghan man lives in a neighbourhood happily alongside neighbours of difference creeds/nationalities etc

6) Monaghan man can get RTE.

7) Monaghan man has been hit hard in the pocket (if he's not in Australia) this last few years due to government cutbacks, job losses.

Nally Stand asked (twice) for CULTURAL differences. "We use different currencies"?!! Since the 26 counties and Austria both use Euros does that make them culturally similar nations all of a sudden!? Wise the head. What you described above are physical/legislative manifestations of a political border. Besides, numbers 4, 5, 6 & 7 are the same for myself and my family and neighbours in Tyrone (Did you think nobody in Tyrone gets RTÉ, lives peacefully with neighbours of different creeds/nationalites, or has been affected by cutbacks and job loses ffs?!) Culture is about identity, language, sports, music etc. So please, explain to me what is CULTURALLY different between myself and someone 15 miles down the road in Monaghan.

...and by all means, take your time.

[Bingo]

Nally Stand asks for differences between him and a Monaghan man:

1) Monaghan man spends euros.

2) Monaghan man's affairs are dealt with by his Government which doesn't regard him as a foreign affair

3) Monaghan man doesn't live in an area of competiting sovereign allegiances.

4) Monaghan man doesn't have to put up with sectarian parades/ commemorations.

5) Monaghan man lives in a neighbourhood happily alongside neighbours of difference creeds/nationalities etc

6) Monaghan man can get RTE.

7) Monaghan man has been hit hard in the pocket (if he's not in Australia) this last few years due to government cutbacks, job losses.

Nally Stand asked (twice) for CULTURAL differences. "We use different currencies"?!! Since the 26 counties and Austria both use Euros does that make them culturally similar nations all of a sudden!? Wise the head. What you described above are physical/legislative manifestations of a political border. Besides, numbers 4, 5, 6 & 7 are the same for myself and my family and neighbours in Tyrone (Did you think nobody in Tyrone gets RTÉ, lives peacefully with neighbours of different creeds/nationalites, or has been affected by cutbacks and job loses ffs?!) Culture is about identity, language, sports, music etc. So please, explain to me what is CULTURALLY different between myself and someone 15 miles down the road in Monaghan.

You've the same hobbies as them, so what. There are plenty in say Dublin, who have the same hobbies as such as alot of people living in similar towns or urban areas in the UK. Does this change anything?

[Nally Stand]

Nally Stand asks for differences between him and a Monaghan man:

1) Monaghan man spends euros.

2) Monaghan man's affairs are dealt with by his Government which doesn't regard him as a foreign affair

3) Monaghan man doesn't live in an area of competiting sovereign allegiances.

4) Monaghan man doesn't have to put up with sectarian parades/ commemorations.

5) Monaghan man lives in a neighbourhood happily alongside neighbours of difference creeds/nationalities etc

6) Monaghan man can get RTE.

7) Monaghan man has been hit hard in the pocket (if he's not in Australia) this last few years due to government cutbacks, job losses.

Nally Stand asked (twice) for CULTURAL differences. "We use different currencies"?!! Since the 26 counties and Austria both use Euros does that make them culturally similar nations all of a sudden!? Wise the head. What you described above are physical/legislative manifestations of a political border. Besides, numbers 4, 5, 6 & 7 are the same for myself and my family and neighbours in Tyrone (Did you think nobody in Tyrone gets RTÉ, lives peacefully with neighbours of different creeds/nationalites, or has been affected by cutbacks and job loses ffs?!) Culture is about identity, language, sports, music etc. So please, explain to me what is CULTURALLY different between myself and someone 15 miles down the road in Monaghan.

You've the same hobbies as them, so what. There are plenty in say Dublin, who have the same hobbies as such as alot of people living in similar towns or urban areas in the UK. Does this change anything?

Some in Dublin have the same hobbies as someone in Greece might. Does that mean Ireland and Greece are culturally the same?

[Applesisapples]

Nally Stand asks for differences between him and a Monaghan man:

1) Monaghan man spends euros.

2) Monaghan man's affairs are dealt with by his Government which doesn't regard him as a foreign affair

3) Monaghan man doesn't live in an area of competiting sovereign allegiances.

4) Monaghan man doesn't have to put up with sectarian parades/ commemorations.

5) Monaghan man lives in a neighbourhood happily alongside neighbours of difference creeds/nationalities etc

6) Monaghan man can get RTE.

7) Monaghan man has been hit hard in the pocket (if he's not in Australia) this last few years due to government cutbacks, job losses.

Nally Stand asked (twice) for CULTURAL differences. "We use different currencies"?!! Since the 26 counties and Austria both use Euros does that make them culturally similar nations all of a sudden!? Wise the head. What you described above are physical/legislative manifestations of a political border. Besides, numbers 4, 5, 6 & 7 are the same for myself and my family and neighbours in Tyrone (Did you think nobody in Tyrone gets RTÉ, lives peacefully with neighbours of different creeds/nationalites, or has been affected by cutbacks and job loses ffs?!) Culture is about identity, language, sports, music etc. So please, explain to me what is CULTURALLY different between myself and someone 15 miles down the road in Monaghan.

Twice in one year I'm on the same page as Nally.

[Bingo]

Nally Stand asks for differences between him and a Monaghan man:

1) Monaghan man spends euros.

2) Monaghan man's affairs are dealt with by his Government which doesn't regard him as a foreign affair

3) Monaghan man doesn't live in an area of competiting sovereign allegiances.

4) Monaghan man doesn't have to put up with sectarian parades/ commemorations.

5) Monaghan man lives in a neighbourhood happily alongside neighbours of difference creeds/nationalities etc

6) Monaghan man can get RTE.

7) Monaghan man has been hit hard in the pocket (if he's not in Australia) this last few years due to government cutbacks, job losses.

Nally Stand asked (twice) for CULTURAL differences. "We use different currencies"?!! Since the 26 counties and Austria both use Euros does that make them culturally similar nations all of a sudden!? Wise the head. What you described above are physical/legislative manifestations of a political border. Besides, numbers 4, 5, 6 & 7 are the same for myself and my family and neighbours in Tyrone (Did you think nobody in Tyrone gets RTÉ, lives peacefully with neighbours of different creeds/nationalites, or has been affected by cutbacks and job loses ffs?!) Culture is about identity, language, sports, music etc. So please, explain to me what is CULTURALLY different between myself and someone 15 miles down the road in Monaghan.

You've the same hobbies as them, so what. There are plenty in say Dublin, who have the same hobbies as such as alot of people living in similar towns or urban areas in the UK. Does this change anything?

Some in Dublin have the same hobbies as someone in Greece might. Does that mean the Ireland and Greece are culturally the same?

What is Culture? I don't think it has anything to do with your sport or music. I know people in Tyrone and Monaghan who's sport would be rally driving and Country Music - I'd have absolutely no interest in either. Does that mean we don't have same identity or culture. Someones hobbies don't give them a shared culture or identity and thats largely what you are looking at. I think. 

[deiseach]

I know people in Tyrone and Monaghan who's sport would be rally driving and Country Music - I'd have absolutely no interest in either. Does that mean we don't have same identity or culture.

We believe you. Honest, we really do.

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

I' not from NI or Ulster, so my opinion doesn't hold much weight really.
I think Mairead is right in that a United Ireland is nowhere in sight really, unless you think like a genocidal maniac of course.

I'd agree with man y of the posters that I'd hope there is no erosion of Irish culture in the 6 counties. I genuinely don't think there will be but you lads know better the goings on up there.

Aside from politics, one thing I would like to see is advancement on the sporting front. I know sport and politics get tangled in some aspects, but I would hope Ulster Rugby would become more open to those outside their traditional areas. I know there are quite a few snobby types who are involved in Rugby (its not unique to Ulster of course) and their attitude can be a turnoff, but Rugby is a good game itself and there can be a benefit for both Gaelic football and Rugby from players giving the other sport a go. Certainly there can be a crossover in strength and conditioning training and some other aspects. I realise not everyone will be on board with this and I am different as I easily mixed the 2 from a young age without any obstacles, but hopefully there will be more moves in this direction.
I know Aaron Kernan has played Rugby a bit and there has been cooperation between Rugby and GAA clubs in a few areas, which is good to hear of. I saw Andy Ward on youtube giving a conditioning workshop to Antrim GAA aswell and obviously the likes of Mike McGurn would have worked in both sports a good bit.
The Norn Iron soccer team is a different kettle of fish and a lot more sticky problem. Don't know how much "cross-community" initiative proactive they are, but it would appear they cater to a more extreme element of Loyalist support. Would be a generation at least before you could imagine any significant support from Nationalists for that team?

Just some thoughts.

[Nally Stand]

Nally Stand asks for differences between him and a Monaghan man:

1) Monaghan man spends euros.

2) Monaghan man's affairs are dealt with by his Government which doesn't regard him as a foreign affair

3) Monaghan man doesn't live in an area of competiting sovereign allegiances.

4) Monaghan man doesn't have to put up with sectarian parades/ commemorations.

5) Monaghan man lives in a neighbourhood happily alongside neighbours of difference creeds/nationalities etc

6) Monaghan man can get RTE.

7) Monaghan man has been hit hard in the pocket (if he's not in Australia) this last few years due to government cutbacks, job losses.

Nally Stand asked (twice) for CULTURAL differences. "We use different currencies"?!! Since the 26 counties and Austria both use Euros does that make them culturally similar nations all of a sudden!? Wise the head. What you described above are physical/legislative manifestations of a political border. Besides, numbers 4, 5, 6 & 7 are the same for myself and my family and neighbours in Tyrone (Did you think nobody in Tyrone gets RTÉ, lives peacefully with neighbours of different creeds/nationalites, or has been affected by cutbacks and job loses ffs?!) Culture is about identity, language, sports, music etc. So please, explain to me what is CULTURALLY different between myself and someone 15 miles down the road in Monaghan.

You've the same hobbies as them, so what. There are plenty in say Dublin, who have the same hobbies as such as alot of people living in similar towns or urban areas in the UK. Does this change anything?

Some in Dublin have the same hobbies as someone in Greece might. Does that mean the Ireland and Greece are culturally the same?

What is Culture? I don't think it has anything to do with your sport or music. I know people in Tyrone and Monaghan who's sport would be rally driving and Country Music - I'd have absolutely no interest in either. Does that mean we don't have same identity or culture. Someones hobbies don't give them a shared culture or identity and thats largely what you are looking at. I think.

Culture isn't just "hobbies". It's also about a sense of identity, of belonging, of a shared vast history. What you call a hobby is often far more than just that. The GAA for instance isn't just a hobby. Some people don't play it but still love it as much as those who do. It's an Irish, cultural institution, born and bred in Ireland, and while it can be played anywhere, it is culturally part of us more so than  it is anywhere else. My own name, my own placenames, are all either Irish, or derive from the Irish language. That too is cultural.