The Disappeared - RTE1 now 21.35 & BBC1 22.35

[glens abu]

What annoys me is there are people commenting on this subject who still are not aware that Jean McConville's boby was found years ago.

[trileacman]

What annoys me is there are people commenting on this subject who still are not aware that Jean McConville's boby was found years ago.

Happened upon by members of the public, not returned by the IRA.

[Nally Stand]

Trileac, you took word twisting to simply chronic levels and claimed I made direct statements that I did not.

the IRA still haven't done anything to return the body of Jean McConville.

If you had as much concern for Jean McConville as you'd like us to believe, you would know that her body was discovered in 2003. While her body was discovered by accident, in recent years the remains of six other IRA victims have been found, while a fairly narrow search area has been seemingly confirmed as the location for another. Do you genuinely believe these bits of progress, however slow, have been made without assistance from the IRA? Now before anybody gets on their high horse and accuses me of lavishing praise on the IRA for this, I am not. I am merely stating that it is nothing more than waffle to suggest that they haven't been assisting with the recovery of remains.

[glens abu]

What annoys me is there are people commenting on this subject who still are not aware that Jean McConville's boby was found years ago.

Happened upon by members of the public, not returned by the IRA.

too late,asshole.

[Wildweasel74]

Is there any proof she was an informer?? sounds to me like certain people spreading rumors to take away from the lowlife act that was carried out. Did the same IRA men not spread disinformation that she was alive and away safe in another location to the community?. We supposed to believe from them same people that she was a informer, yeah right!!!

[Nally Stand]

Is there any proof she was an informer?? sounds to me like certain people spreading rumors to take away from the lowlife act that was carried out. Did the same IRA men not spread disinformation that she was alive and away safe in another location to the community?. We supposed to believe from them same people that she was a informer, yeah right!!!

There is no proof that she was an informer and likewise there is no proof to suggest Gerry Adams was involved. People will decide what they want to believe or what suits them best to believe though. There are people (including some on here I can imagine) who will blindly and with some glee accept Brendan Hughes' claim that Adams ordered her disappearance, but will scoff at his other claim that she was an informer who had been warned to cease her activities. Doubtless there are people who will believe the vice-versa of Hughes' claims. Fact is there is no definitive proof for either allegation.

[Maguire01]

Surely that analogy is flawed? This wasn't actions of a few individual members - it was sanctioned from the top of the organisation - it was effectively policy. The analogy would be the Árd Comhairle directing players on to "regularly strike each other".

Any proof that it was "sanctioned from the top"? Or are you presenting Brendan Hughes' claim as fact? And again, no mater who sanctioned it, top, middle or bottom; while it was obscene, disappearing bodies was not typical of IRA operations and I again state my view that it is possible to view the IRA's campaign as justifiable, while seeing certain of their actions/decisions as anything but.

I didn't think it was in dispute that these killings were sanctioned. Hughes (and Price) allege Adams as Belfast OC ordered that one particular killing - that allegation of involvement has been denied by Adams, but i'm fairly sure there's no denial that these were sanctioned killings - and if I recall correctly, there was reference in the programme to an IRA decision to abandon this practice, which also indicates that it was 'policy'. for a time

Also, i'd consider it an important distinction in terms of whether it was sanctioned activity or a 'solo run' by some members at the 'bottom'. Apply the same logic to security forces involved in collusion - the distinction is fairly critical.

[Maguire01]

Is there any proof she was an informer?? sounds to me like certain people spreading rumors to take away from the lowlife act that was carried out. Did the same IRA men not spread disinformation that she was alive and away safe in another location to the community?. We supposed to believe from them same people that she was a informer, yeah right!!!

There is no proof that she was an informer and likewise there is no proof to suggest Gerry Adams was involved. People will decide what they want to believe or what suits them best to believe though. There are people (including some on here I can imagine) who will blindly and with some glee accept Brendan Hughes' claim that Adams ordered her disappearance, but will scoff at his other claim that she was an informer who had been warned to cease her activities. Doubtless there are people who will believe the vice-versa of Hughes' claims. Fact is there is no definitive proof for either allegation.

You're right - apart from testimony, there's no definitive proof of either. But one ended with a mother of 10 killed and disappeared.

[Maguire01]

Sorrowful Gerry joins in call to find IRA victims
Adams was certainly unanimous with himself in his opinion that he was one of the good guys

Miriam Lord
Wed, Nov 6, 2013, 01:00

It's a pity the man who was commander of the IRA in west Belfast all those years ago wasn't in the Dáil chamber yesterday afternoon.
He could have cleared up a few questions.
The harrowing story of those people now known as "the Disappeared" was very much on the minds of party leaders on the day after a television programme was aired about their abduction, murder and secret burial.

An evil, squalid episode epitomised by the fate of Jean McConville, a mother of 10 wrenched from her young family and taken to her death. Her body was found, by chance, decades later. Other families suffered similar grief. And some continue to wait into their old age, hoping they will get the chance to bring their loved ones home to rest.

Palpable hurt
"It's a long time ago but the hurt is obviously as palpable and as relevant now as it was then," the Taoiseach told a hushed Dáil.

The Fianna Fáil leader spoke for those families who still didn't know where their loved ones were hidden or buried. "I would ask that every effort is made to pursue the case of the murder of Jean McConville and that all involved should be in a position to co-operate fully," said Micheál Martin.

Gerry Adams couldn't agree more. A sorrowful Sinn Féin leader told the House that he had also seen the documentary. Not only that, but he took part in it. He seemed quite proud of this.

"I took part in the programme in order to focus on the necessary effort to get those whose remains have not been recovered to be retrieved as quickly as possible and returned to their families."

Did Adams see the icy-expressions on the faces around him as he spoke? Did he hear the cynical sighs of disgust? And if so, did he wonder why?

"I would ask the Taoiseach to join with me in assisting very actively in the work of the commission which was established under the last government . . . and I think the programme last night should be a huge motivation to anyone who has information whatsoever to bring it forward."

Gerry Adams was certainly unanimous with himself in his opinion that he was one of the good guys.

But judging by the chilly atmosphere in the chamber and the eye-rolling of the vast majority of deputies present, they did not share his assessment of his performance.

The Taoiseach coolly noted that Adams had taken part. He too hoped that some good would come out of the programme.

Looking directly at the Sinn Féin leader, who still insists he wasn't in the IRA, he mused: "The fact of the matter is that somebody ordered that Jean McConville be murdered. Somebody instructed that people take her away. Somebody instructed that Dolours Price drive that vehicle across the Border and somebody instructed that what happened took place."

The Sinn Féin leader and TD for Louth listened, sitting back in his seat, arms folded across his body.

Two IRA volunteers, now deceased, named Gerry Adams as that person. He has always vehemently denied this and says they named him because of their opposition to the peace process and the part he played in it.

The Taoiseach didn't name any names in the Dáil yesterday. Neither did Micheál Martin. And when Fianna Fáil's Brendan Smith raised the issue of "the Disappeared" during Topical Questions, he didn't name anybody either.

However their comments were as much about what went unsaid as what they put on the record.

"It may well be that those people are still around and they know what happened, and your own appeal from this may well have some effect, and I hope it has," said Enda to Gerry. "I hope the programme stimulates active minds to make their information available. There were some, eh, very direct comments made, indeed, about your own presence on the programme yesterday . . ."

He left it at that.

Brendan Smith, a TD for Cavan-Monaghan, returned to the subject later. In a powerful speech, he retold the bleak tale of the Disappeared

"These are the silent witnesses to some of the grimmest and most cynical crimes of that troubled time," he said. "Sons, brothers, husbands, fathers and mothers were ruthlessly taken from their families in the dark of night on the orders of self-appointed local warlords. Some were barely old enough to shave before they disappeared into the depths of an IRA conspiracy."

He named some of the victims and spoke of the agony of those left to mourn them; people like Charlie Armstrong's widow.

"Mrs Armstrong's quiet dignity and strength as she visited the grave of her husband stood in stark contrast to the weasel words of Gerry Adams as even now he tries to muddy the waters."

Very strong words to use on the floor of the Dáil against a sitting deputy. Adams wasn't in the chamber to hear him.

"The IRA still refuse to accept responsibility for the murders and legitimate questions are not answered by deputy Adams and others."

Brendan Smith wasn't pulling any punches.

"Contrary to what Deputy Adams and others would like now to claim, everyone in the North does not share responsibility for what happened there," he said, pointing out that nationalist communities across the North were resisting the IRA's campaign of terror while trying to rear families and live in peace.

Speaking of those still trying to recover the remains of loved ones he hoped "all members in this House rise to their moral responsibility to help those families".

He wanted to hear what the IRA leadership at that time had to say now about these murders. But who were those leaders and who was the commander, Brendan?

Gerry Adams can't help him out there, much as he might want to. As we all know he was never in the IRA . . .

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/sorrowful-gerry-joins-in-call-to-find-ira-victims-1.1584942?page=1

[Linkbox]

Can this be downloaded anywhere lads? Looked in the usual spots but can't find it.

[glens abu]

IN RESPONSE to the recent BBC/RTÉ programme concerning those people shot and secretly buried by the IRA, Breige Wright, the sister of Belfast man Seamus Wright – in a letter to An Phoblacht – wishes to clarify a number of points.

These particularly concern interventions and accusations attributed to Dolours Price and Brendan Hughes.

My brother, Seamus Wright
By Breige Wright
MY BROTHER, Seamus Wright, an IRA Volunteer, was killed and secretly buried by the IRA in 1972.

They have said why they killed him. They have identified the location where they buried his body.

In 2010, for the first time, my family made a public intervention following comments by Dolours Price in relation to the disappearance and death of our brother Seamus.

At that time we challenged her to either bring forward information that could help recover Seamus's remains or to stop using his death in pursuit of her own political agenda. We asked her to engage with the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains (ICLVR).

Contrary to what some media reports have said, she did not engage with the ICLVR.

Others, including Brendan Hughes, sought to use Seamus's death and the circumstances surrounding it in a similar fashion.

None of these people brought forward any information that has been of help in the search for Seamus's remains.

Following Seamus's disappearance there were many rumours and stories. Some suggested that he had gone into hiding with those who had recruited him as their agent – British Military Intelligence; others suggested that he had been killed and buried by the IRA.

In 1999, the IRA publicly accepted its responsibility for killing Seamus.

My family has grieved as any other family. Our loss is no greater or no less than anyone else's.

I have met with the ICLVR. I have met with republicans. I accept the difficulties outlined by the ICLVR and by republicans. These include: the deaths of some of those directly involved in the actual event; the impact of time on people's memories; major physical changes at the site; and the hostility of some, who might have information, to those republicans trying to bring closure. All of these points are a matter of public record.

I know there is a strong concern that previous digging at the site might have disturbed the grave and the remains.

Mr Geoff Knupfer of the ICLVR has recently acknowledged this in relation to another site (The Irish Times, 1 October 2013).

Only the small number of people involved in the killing and burial of my brother have information that might help. Everything else is speculation and rumour. I am satisfied that information has been passed onto the ICLVR in good faith.

I ask those who have genuinely engaged with the ICLVR to continue to do so. I would call on anyone else with genuine information that might help locate the remains of any of those whose bodies have not yet been recovered to pass that information to the ICLVR through whatever conduit they choose.

I would like to thank all of those who have been trying to help our family achieve closure: Gerry Adams, Fr Alex Reid, Fr Brendan O'Callaghan, the ICLVR, Geoff Knupfer and his team, and others who have been working quietly over the past 14 years.

All we as a family want is to be able to bury our brother's remains beside our father, mother and sister.

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Republican Roll of Honour

[glens abu]

 "In Ireland our party has no regular source of income, whatever resources we have secured it has been through our own efforts, we state in confidence to you, that we do not allow ourselves to be restricted in the methods of raising resources," states a four-page letter to the SED  [East German Ruling Party,the East German Socialist Unity Party of Germany ] central committee, dated February 26th, 1989.

"Legal and illegal means have been employed by us. We well recognize the dangers involved in some of our resources raising activity in Ireland and we are constantly examining ways and means whereby this danger can be eliminated."

So said Sean Garland, general secretary of the Workers' Party in 1989. In 1989 both Rabbitte and Gilmore were elected as Workers' Party TDs. Gilmore joined the Official Republican movement when he was in college in 1975. Rabitte was first elected as a Workers' Party councilor in 1985. Today Eamon Gilmore today is of course leader of the Labour party,  Tánaiste and Minister for Forign Affairs and Trade. Rabbitte is Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

We are all familiar with Gerry Adams denials he was in the PIRA, but at least he didn't pretend that they didn't exist. The Workers' Party, in which Gilmore and Rabbitte were leading members, routinely denied that the OIRA or "Group B" existed. However with the release of Garlands letter in the Irish Times (incidentally his old buddies in Labour campaigned to stop him from getting extradited to America recently over "superdollar" forgery charges. Garland was ultimately successful in his attempts to block extradition) we have a clear admission that the Workers' Party had no "regular" income and was funded by "illegal" means.

Everyone already knew this, but this letter serves as final confirmation. The Workers' Party was funded by bank robberies, theft, intimidation and forgery. (A printing press linked to the party was involved in forging money)

"Raising party funds was crucial to fight effective campaigns on both sides of the Border, he wrote, particularly as the party had just ordered a new offset printing press costing a total of £170,000 with a five-year bank "laese" (sic).
"Over the past years we have had to borrow large amounts of money to expand and maintain the party. Our technical section has been severly restricted for tactical reasons because of the dangers involved in illegal activity."

Were the numerous election campaigns of the Workers' Party, including those of Gilmore and Rabbitte during the eighties and later funded by the OIRA? Garland says the party was funded by "illegal" means. Gilmore and Rabbitte have "both denied having any knowledge of illegal fundraising by their former political party." They also stated that they received no funds from Workers' Party headquarters for their 1989 general election campaign. What about their previous election campaigns? Ones such as these for example?


Eamon Gilmore – Workers Party- Dun Laoghaire- November 1982
Eamon Gilmore- Workers Party -1985 Local Elections - Ballybrack
Pat Rabbitte – Workers Party – Dublin South West, 1987 General Election
Eamon Gilmore -Workers Party -Dun Laoghaire, 1987 General Election

Are we supposed to believe that Gilmore and Rabbitte never got any money at all from their party to run campaigns or to carry out any other political activity? Ever?



[From "The Lost Revolution"]
"Group B's continued importance was evident in a financial report...in October 1990. From October 1989 until September 1990, costs covered by party head office had amounted to £360,300, of which WP funds provided £189,900 with the balance of £170,600 met by Repsol."

Repsol were their publishing organ and were involved, according to the book and other sources, with money laundering and all sorts of other illegal activity. Take a look at who published and printed the election leaflets previously linked.

It is incomprehensible that members of the Workers' Party did not know of "Group B" and their activities. In fact in the book it is asserted that De Rossa (former IRA prisoner, TD, MEP) a close ally of the twosome was assured by Garland around 1990 that Group B was to be wound up and criminal activity would stop... ie De Rossa knew of "Group B" and their activity. Garland lied anyway and activity did not cease. Gilmore, De Rossa, Rabbitte and co split from the workers party and set up Democratic Left after 92 and merged (and later in effect took over) Labour in 1999.

Throughout the 1980s, allegations that the Official IRA remained in existence and was engaged in criminal activity appeared in the Irish press. In June 1982 the feud with the INLA flared again after OIRA member James Flynn, the alleged assassin of Seamus Costello,[13] was shot dead by the INLA in Dublin.[14] In December 1985 five men, including a Mr. Anthony McDonagh, pleaded guilty to charges of conspiracy to defraud the Inland Revenue in Northern Ireland—McDonagh was described in court as an Official IRA Commander.[15] In February 1992 a British Spotlight programme alleged that the Official IRA was still active and involved in widespread racketeering and armed robberies.[16]
These eventually proved a considerable political embarrassment to the Workers' Party, and in 1992 the leadership proposed amendments to the party constitution which would, inter alia, effectively allow it to purge members suspected of involvement in the Official IRA. This proposal failed to obtain the required two-thirds support at the party conference that year, and as a result the leadership, including six of the party's seven members of Dáil Éireann, left to establish a new party, later named Democratic Left.

[Maguire01]

What's the relevance to the disappeared?

[CD]

I don't know if this is an original thought or if I've heard it somewhere in the past associated with this, but does anyone else feel that the labelling of these poor people as 'the disappeared' almost belittles what they have been through. They didn't disappear - they were taken! Against their will. And murdered. They didn't disappear.

[glens abu]

What's the relevance to the disappeared?

Which statement do you not equivalent with the disappeared ?