Author Topic: The Haas Talks  (Read 23910 times)

Orior

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The Haas Talks
« on: September 20, 2013, 11:41:37 AM »
This probaby deserves its own thread. Here is my view of the background to the Haas talks:

1) The DUP were pissed aff at Alliance getting the East Belfast seat, so they tricked the Ulster Unionists into a partnership and concocted a story about flags on the City Hall to scare the low-brow knuckle draggers. Their leaflet drop had the desired effect as it blamed Alliance for making belfast city hall less british/english. Unfortunately after that, things got out of hand, the mob took over with riots, protests etc. It was also a disaster for the business community. [The guy who came up with the leaflet idea said "ooops" but then realised he could blame the economic disaster on Nama. What a star he is!].

2) Unionists hate being told what to do, or what not to do. Especially by those pesky fenians. They want to march where they like, they want to celebrate past battles, but dont want fenians doing the same (Long Kesh and Beleek)

3) Unionists/Orange Order are not getting their way, so they thought let's try another angle - bring in the yanks.


In these talks, the nationalists have nothing to loose (hence our williningness to participate) and unionists have everything to loose (but they are so stupid they dont realise it yet). It will all end in tears. 
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

T Fearon

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 11:56:08 AM »
Are you Mark Devenport or Ken Reid?

Seriously, I don't understand why people (nationalists) in particular don't jettison the yanks and demand the British Government (who has sovereignty) deals with unionist bigotry and violence here once and for all, as they do effectively with all extremists from the BNP to Muslim hate clerics, on the "mainland".

Nationalists are continually letting the British off the hook in this regard, and effectively supporting the British angle to the world that it is an "Irish" problem, not of our making and we've done all we can.

Could you imagine Haass being brought into N.London to host talks to try to resolve racial tensions?

Nally Stand

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 12:23:30 PM »
Are you Mark Devenport or Ken Reid?

Seriously, I don't understand why people (nationalists) in particular don't jettison the yanks and demand the British Government (who has sovereignty) deals with unionist bigotry and violence here once and for all, as they do effectively with all extremists from the BNP to Muslim hate clerics, on the "mainland".

Nationalists are continually letting the British off the hook in this regard, and effectively supporting the British angle to the world that it is an "Irish" problem, not of our making and we've done all we can.

Could you imagine Haass being brought into N.London to host talks to try to resolve racial tensions?

Since when did the British Government listen to "demands" from nationalist Ireland without having to be bombed into doing so? You honestly expect a tory government to back nationalist "demands" to come down hard on unionism??
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

laoislad

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 12:29:20 PM »
Christy Moore should write a song about it.

T Fearon

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 01:02:11 PM »
I'm saying the British Government should deal with problems in areas in which it has exclusive sovereignty, and not be allowed to palm these problems off to the USA etc. If all shades of nationalism, combined with the Dublin government, demanded this, (instead of willingly participating in talks hosted by US diplomats) it would be a lot more likely to happen. Look what happened to Sinn Fein when pressure from all quarters was put on it for a Ceasefire, then decommissioning.

Nally Stand

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 01:13:11 PM »
I'm saying the British Government should deal with problems in areas in which it has exclusive sovereignty, and not be allowed to palm these problems off to the USA etc. If all shades of nationalism, combined with the Dublin government, demanded this, (instead of willingly participating in talks hosted by US diplomats) it would be a lot more likely to happen. Look what happened to Sinn Fein when pressure from all quarters was put on it for a Ceasefire, then decommissioning.

Of course Dublin put pressure on the shinners. They'd take great glee in doing so while SF pose a threat to those in power there, but expecting a british tory government to come down hard on unionism, and all because nationalists just asked them to, is absolutely fanciful thinking! All shades of nationalism & Dublin demanded the brits talk to republicans but it took a bombing campaign for them to sit up and listen to such demands from nationalist Ireland. And as far as Dublin is concerned, the british government never had taken "demands" seriously from there. The day after Lizzy left last year (when we were told about the new relationship and new mutual respect blah blah blah), the british government once again brushed away a "demand" from Dublin for the files on the bombings to be released.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

T Fearon

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 02:26:19 PM »
But Haass and his ilk, hosting talks, conveniently allows the British to take a back seat, in an area where they are the sovereign power, and allows them to portray the problem as an Irish one, for which they have no responsibility. How about SF and SDLP making a song and dance about this across Europe and the USA and put pressure on the British by so doing.

Nally Stand

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 02:42:01 PM »
But Haass and his ilk, hosting talks, conveniently allows the British to take a back seat, in an area where they are the sovereign power, and allows them to portray the problem as an Irish one, for which they have no responsibility. How about SF and SDLP making a song and dance about this across Europe and the USA and put pressure on the British by so doing.

Again, it would take a heck of a lot more than an song and dance by nationalist politicians to make a tory government stand up to unionism. To reference the Dublin/Monaghan bombings again, Dublin has repeatedly threatened to take the case for the release of British Files to the European Court of Human Rights. Many collusion victims have been to Europe and beyond in their campaigns for truth etc. British Governments simply do not side with nationalism against unionism. It took 38 YEARS for them to accept culpability for Bloody Sunday, and that in the face of immense international pressure ffs! I know you are saying it would be nice for the British Government to take responsibilty for unionist actions here, but to think they ever would is beyond naive.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

T Fearon

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 03:18:09 PM »
It's not beyond naive to use the offices of Europe and USA to take notice of what's happening and exert maxium pressure on the British Government. They may not listen or repsond to Sinn Fein, SDLP or Irish Government, but they will to Europe and the USA in particular.

Nally Stand

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »
It's not beyond naive to use the offices of Europe and USA to take notice of what's happening and exert maxium pressure on the British Government. They may not listen or repsond to Sinn Fein, SDLP or Irish Government, but they will to Europe and the USA in particular.

Europe & the USA aren't going to devote their time to a handful of loyalists blocking a road here and there. And only a few posts back you were complaining about he USA having any involvement in it at all! You've come full circle!
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

T Fearon

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 03:49:13 PM »
USA's involvement should be exerting pressure on Britain, not assuming Britain's role in directly sorting out problems in a region where Britain has sovereignty.

Nally Stand

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2013, 03:53:42 PM »
USA's involvement should be exerting pressure on Britain, not assuming Britain's role in directly sorting out problems in a region where Britain has sovereignty.

Again overlooking the fact that sending a diplomat in the shape of Richard Haas is about as much as the US are going to do. Tony, you have to be realistic. The tory British government simply isn't going to stand up to unionism at the behest of Irish nationalists and the USA doesn't give enough of a hoot about a handful of loyalist road blocks to give a shite. No point in pretending otherwise.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

Applesisapples

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2013, 04:23:40 PM »
You are all missing the central issue here and that is you can bring back Enoch Powell or Maggie T or even Prince William of Orange. Bottom line is these bigot orange and loyalist toe rags will not budge an inch and they are holding all of unionism to ransom. It doesn't help that the DUP have a faction led by McCausland who's views are not a kick in the arse of those of thefleg protesting loyalists at Twaddell Ave...nothing will be agreed because for agreement they need to give nad they won't.

T Fearon

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 04:43:45 PM »
If appropriate pressure is applied (who'd have thought 20 years ago Sinn Fein would have called a ceasefire let alone decommission its weaponry) anything can happen. Even if what you say is true, the USA should not continually provide a fig leaf for the British here.

Oh and by the way, Brtish tories will stand up to anything or anyone, when it suits them of course.

red hander

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Re: The Haas Talks
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2013, 05:00:40 PM »
A total and utter waste of time that will lead to nothing, only the massaging of Richard Haass's ego (and that of his easy-on-the-eye sidekick) as some sort of international diplomatic firefighters. We'll still be in the same pile of shite in 20 years' time, and the swine (and their family employees) up in Stormont will still be at the trough, feeding off our taxes and delivering zilch