Author Topic: Death Notices  (Read 968653 times)

sid waddell

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7200 on: November 26, 2020, 05:03:49 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.
I suppose Senna had as much flair as it's possible to have driving a car

But I would compare him more to somebody like Seve Ballesteros, mercurial in his own way, and loved, but pursuing an essentially minority, rich pursuit

Brazil elevated Senna perhaps in the absence of a great Brazilian football figure of the era, and because of their failure in World Cups in 1986 and 1990, his death and Brazil's victory in 1994 signalled a changing of the guard back to Brazil's first love, football

Senna would not have been what he was without his rivalry with Prost, in a similar way to how Messi's story is tied up with his rivalry with Ronaldo, in both cases, each was driven on by the other

But comparing Senna to Maradona is like comparing Jimmy Page to Jimi Hendrix, The Small Faces to The Beatles, Ocean Colour Scene to Oasis

Maradona didn't have that sort of personal rival, his rival was the system, oppression, the rich, he was a football Robin Hood fighting for the little people

What people's definition of greatness is will differ, but for me the greatest greatness is circumstance, story and explosive genius of the sort nobody else can even dream of, fighting against the odds

There needs to be genius and there needs to be romance, there needs to be soul

Football at it's very best is an art form, it is self expression, or collective expression, but it's also a test of human strength, both physical and mental

In basic football terms Maradona had a higher ceiling than anybody to have ever played the game, his genius was on another level to anybody who has ever played any sport, he did this against the hardest odds any true sporting genius has ever had to put up with

And he produced this ceiling at the very highest level possible, the most popular sporting event in the world - the centre of the world for a month - in a World Cup which was the first one Argentina had experienced free of the junta - most memorably against the country which had defeated it humiliatingly in a war four years earlier

He owned the world, no other footballer, not even Pele, has done this

He did this with an otherwise average team

He did the same in the hardest league there has ever been in football, Serie A from 1984 to 1991, with a team which had never won the league and whose people were looked down upon, ridiculed, despised by the wealthy north of Italy

The graphic of Ché Guevara that we all know means something visceral to people, a sort of a loose, romantic feeling of freedom and justice, of being young, of being a rebel, it doesn't have to make sense, but it stirs something in you, you haven't a heart if it doesn't move you somewhat

Diego was that graphic of Ché Guevara come to life on a football pitch

He was a symbol of freedom, of rebelliousness, of youth, of pure unrestrained potency, of fantasy, unlimited possibility, of exoticism, of cool, of danger, of other worldly genius

He was a rock star, preacher, prophet, stand up comedian, guerilla fighter, genius poker player, all rolled into one

He was the greatest countercultural icon ever

And to his peoples he was a redeemer and a liberator

This is what greatness is

And he suffered for it, because nobody could deal with the unconditional worship people had for him






JimStynes

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7201 on: November 26, 2020, 05:25:36 PM »
You can't separate Messi, Ronaldo and Maradona. Ronaldo and Messi won't be appreciated fully until they retire.

Maroon Manc

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7202 on: November 26, 2020, 05:38:40 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.

Maradona scored 38 goals in 58 games for Barca, its a record any world class centre forward would be proud never mind a player who was an attacking midfielder.

Napoli were a point off been relegated the summer he signed for Napoli, he had them challenging for a title in his 2nd season whilst winning it in his 3rd season. They finished 2nd twice in in the next 2 seasons before winning it again in 89/90. You're extremely harsh to suggest he wasn't constantly brilliant during that period. Serie A was by a mile from the the mid 80's to the mid 90's the strongest league in the world.

Messi's record for Argentina is very poor in comparison to Maradona's who carried Argentina to 2 finals. Clearly Messi has benefitted from the better pitches and the increased protection attacking players benefit from in this era.

seafoid

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7203 on: November 26, 2020, 05:49:55 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.
I suppose Senna had as much flair as it's possible to have driving a car

But I would compare him more to somebody like Seve Ballesteros, mercurial in his own way, and loved, but pursuing an essentially minority, rich pursuit

Brazil elevated Senna perhaps in the absence of a great Brazilian football figure of the era, and because of their failure in World Cups in 1986 and 1990, his death and Brazil's victory in 1994 signalled a changing of the guard back to Brazil's first love, football

Senna would not have been what he was without his rivalry with Prost, in a similar way to how Messi's story is tied up with his rivalry with Ronaldo, in both cases, each was driven on by the other

But comparing Senna to Maradona is like comparing Jimmy Page to Jimi Hendrix, The Small Faces to The Beatles, Ocean Colour Scene to Oasis

Maradona didn't have that sort of personal rival, his rival was the system, oppression, the rich, he was a football Robin Hood fighting for the little people

What people's definition of greatness is will differ, but for me the greatest greatness is circumstance, story and explosive genius of the sort nobody else can even dream of, fighting against the odds

There needs to be genius and there needs to be romance, there needs to be soul

Football at it's very best is an art form, it is self expression, or collective expression, but it's also a test of human strength, both physical and mental

In basic football terms Maradona had a higher ceiling than anybody to have ever played the game, his genius was on another level to anybody who has ever played any sport, he did this against the hardest odds any true sporting genius has ever had to put up with

And he produced this ceiling at the very highest level possible, the most popular sporting event in the world - the centre of the world for a month - in a World Cup which was the first one Argentina had experienced free of the junta - most memorably against the country which had defeated it humiliatingly in a war four years earlier

He owned the world, no other footballer, not even Pele, has done this

He did this with an otherwise average team

He did the same in the hardest league there has ever been in football, Serie A from 1984 to 1991, with a team which had never won the league and whose people were looked down upon, ridiculed, despised by the wealthy north of Italy

The graphic of Ché Guevara that we all know means something visceral to people, a sort of a loose, romantic feeling of freedom and justice, of being young, of being a rebel, it doesn't have to make sense, but it stirs something in you, you haven't a heart if it doesn't move you somewhat

Diego was that graphic of Ché Guevara come to life on a football pitch

He was a symbol of freedom, of rebelliousness, of youth, of pure unrestrained potency, of fantasy, unlimited possibility, of exoticism, of cool, of danger, of other worldly genius

He was a rock star, preacher, prophet, stand up comedian, guerilla fighter, genius poker player, all rolled into one

He was the greatest countercultural icon ever

And to his peoples he was a redeemer and a liberator

This is what greatness is

And he suffered for it, because nobody could deal with the unconditional worship people had for him

"What people's definition of greatness is will differ, but for me the greatest greatness is circumstance, story and explosive genius of the sort nobody else can even dream of, fighting against the odds

There needs to be genius and there needs to be romance, there needs to be soul

Football at it's very best is an art form, it is self expression, or collective expression, but it's also a test of human strength, both physical and mental"


Any point Cavan score the next day will.reverberate around the favelas of Belo Horizonte
 The timelessness of beauty in the face of 1/100
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Silver hill

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7204 on: November 26, 2020, 06:06:06 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.

Wise up. It’s not even close.
I love Messi and how he plays, he’s streets ahead of Ronaldo but a grade down from the level that maradona operated at.
Diego did all that messi did and more at club level, the real difference is their respective performances at the World Cup.
And don’t forget all the brilliant players that messi had to help him over his career at Barca, Ronaldinho/xavi/iniesta/Suarez/Deco etc.
Diego practically did it on his own in Spain and then more impressively, as a one man wrecking ball in Napoli

Armamike

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7205 on: November 26, 2020, 06:06:56 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.
I suppose Senna had as much flair as it's possible to have driving a car

But I would compare him more to somebody like Seve Ballesteros, mercurial in his own way, and loved, but pursuing an essentially minority, rich pursuit

Brazil elevated Senna perhaps in the absence of a great Brazilian football figure of the era, and because of their failure in World Cups in 1986 and 1990, his death and Brazil's victory in 1994 signalled a changing of the guard back to Brazil's first love, football

Senna would not have been what he was without his rivalry with Prost, in a similar way to how Messi's story is tied up with his rivalry with Ronaldo, in both cases, each was driven on by the other

But comparing Senna to Maradona is like comparing Jimmy Page to Jimi Hendrix, The Small Faces to The Beatles, Ocean Colour Scene to Oasis

Maradona didn't have that sort of personal rival, his rival was the system, oppression, the rich, he was a football Robin Hood fighting for the little people

What people's definition of greatness is will differ, but for me the greatest greatness is circumstance, story and explosive genius of the sort nobody else can even dream of, fighting against the odds

There needs to be genius and there needs to be romance, there needs to be soul

Football at it's very best is an art form, it is self expression, or collective expression, but it's also a test of human strength, both physical and mental

In basic football terms Maradona had a higher ceiling than anybody to have ever played the game, his genius was on another level to anybody who has ever played any sport, he did this against the hardest odds any true sporting genius has ever had to put up with

And he produced this ceiling at the very highest level possible, the most popular sporting event in the world - the centre of the world for a month - in a World Cup which was the first one Argentina had experienced free of the junta - most memorably against the country which had defeated it humiliatingly in a war four years earlier

He owned the world, no other footballer, not even Pele, has done this

He did this with an otherwise average team


He did the same in the hardest league there has ever been in football, Serie A from 1984 to 1991, with a team which had never won the league and whose people were looked down upon, ridiculed, despised by the wealthy north of Italy

The graphic of Ché Guevara that we all know means something visceral to people, a sort of a loose, romantic feeling of freedom and justice, of being young, of being a rebel, it doesn't have to make sense, but it stirs something in you, you haven't a heart if it doesn't move you somewhat

Diego was that graphic of Ché Guevara come to life on a football pitch

He was a symbol of freedom, of rebelliousness, of youth, of pure unrestrained potency, of fantasy, unlimited possibility, of exoticism, of cool, of danger, of other worldly genius

He was a rock star, preacher, prophet, stand up comedian, guerilla fighter, genius poker player, all rolled into one

He was the greatest countercultural icon ever

And to his peoples he was a redeemer and a liberator

This is what greatness is

And he suffered for it, because nobody could deal with the unconditional worship people had for him

That's it for me. Produced unsurpassable levels of brilliance on the World Cup stage and lifted average to mediocre teams to glory.
From doubters to believers.

nrico2006

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7206 on: November 26, 2020, 07:55:33 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.

Agree with this.  Messi's club career is far superior to Maradona's too.  Also, its stupid to pick a modern player, Messi for example, and say that they would not have thrived in football 30 years ago.  He would have grown up with those type of tackles as part and parcel of the game and would have excelled in the same manner he has done over the past 15 years. 
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

seafoid

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7207 on: November 26, 2020, 07:59:33 PM »
Maradona was a díol trua. The glory of his playing years versus the sordidness of what followed. Not unlike Gazza. Nobody decent around him. Not unlike Elvis.

Football looks after its players while they are playing. But not after. Paul McGrath could talk about this.
 
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mouview

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7208 on: November 26, 2020, 08:40:05 PM »

I suppose Senna had as much flair as it's possible to have driving a car

But I would compare him more to somebody like Seve Ballesteros, mercurial in his own way, and loved, but pursuing an essentially minority, rich pursuit

Brazil elevated Senna perhaps in the absence of a great Brazilian football figure of the era, and because of their failure in World Cups in 1986 and 1990, his death and Brazil's victory in 1994 signalled a changing of the guard back to Brazil's first love, football

Senna would not have been what he was without his rivalry with Prost, in a similar way to how Messi's story is tied up with his rivalry with Ronaldo, in both cases, each was driven on by the other

But comparing Senna to Maradona is like comparing Jimmy Page to Jimi Hendrix, The Small Faces to The Beatles, Ocean Colour Scene to Oasis

Maradona didn't have that sort of personal rival, his rival was the system, oppression, the rich, he was a football Robin Hood fighting for the little people

What people's definition of greatness is will differ, but for me the greatest greatness is circumstance, story and explosive genius of the sort nobody else can even dream of, fighting against the odds

There needs to be genius and there needs to be romance, there needs to be soul

Football at it's very best is an art form, it is self expression, or collective expression, but it's also a test of human strength, both physical and mental

In basic football terms Maradona had a higher ceiling than anybody to have ever played the game, his genius was on another level to anybody who has ever played any sport, he did this against the hardest odds any true sporting genius has ever had to put up with

And he produced this ceiling at the very highest level possible, the most popular sporting event in the world - the centre of the world for a month - in a World Cup which was the first one Argentina had experienced free of the junta - most memorably against the country which had defeated it humiliatingly in a war four years earlier

He owned the world, no other footballer, not even Pele, has done this

He did this with an otherwise average team

He did the same in the hardest league there has ever been in football, Serie A from 1984 to 1991, with a team which had never won the league and whose people were looked down upon, ridiculed, despised by the wealthy north of Italy

The graphic of Ché Guevara that we all know means something visceral to people, a sort of a loose, romantic feeling of freedom and justice, of being young, of being a rebel, it doesn't have to make sense, but it stirs something in you, you haven't a heart if it doesn't move you somewhat

Diego was that graphic of Ché Guevara come to life on a football pitch

He was a symbol of freedom, of rebelliousness, of youth, of pure unrestrained potency, of fantasy, unlimited possibility, of exoticism, of cool, of danger, of other worldly genius

He was a rock star, preacher, prophet, stand up comedian, guerilla fighter, genius poker player, all rolled into one

He was the greatest countercultural icon ever

And to his peoples he was a redeemer and a liberator

This is what greatness is

And he suffered for it, because nobody could deal with the unconditional worship people had for him

Think you need to ease up on the hyperbole a bit Sid :-)

Maradona cared sod all for the poor people, once he was made. He had wealth beyond dreams and wanted for nothing. He was no Che certainly, if he referenced the poor people of life, it was as a convenience to make it seem he was a man against the system. If he was a counterculture icon, it was because he chose to be seen that way - it was ultimately meaningless, didn't make a blind bit of material difference to his fans. He was too busy imbibing Columbia's finest.

Pele did it at 3 World Cups, the first at 17, though granted he had better teams around him.

I define sporting greatness in simple, narrow terms; how dominant was the protagonist in their sport. Everything outside of that is superfluous context to me.

The graphic of Che means nothing to me. He was a failed military commander who got his men killed.

sid waddell

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7209 on: November 26, 2020, 09:22:37 PM »

I suppose Senna had as much flair as it's possible to have driving a car

But I would compare him more to somebody like Seve Ballesteros, mercurial in his own way, and loved, but pursuing an essentially minority, rich pursuit

Brazil elevated Senna perhaps in the absence of a great Brazilian football figure of the era, and because of their failure in World Cups in 1986 and 1990, his death and Brazil's victory in 1994 signalled a changing of the guard back to Brazil's first love, football

Senna would not have been what he was without his rivalry with Prost, in a similar way to how Messi's story is tied up with his rivalry with Ronaldo, in both cases, each was driven on by the other

But comparing Senna to Maradona is like comparing Jimmy Page to Jimi Hendrix, The Small Faces to The Beatles, Ocean Colour Scene to Oasis

Maradona didn't have that sort of personal rival, his rival was the system, oppression, the rich, he was a football Robin Hood fighting for the little people

What people's definition of greatness is will differ, but for me the greatest greatness is circumstance, story and explosive genius of the sort nobody else can even dream of, fighting against the odds

There needs to be genius and there needs to be romance, there needs to be soul

Football at it's very best is an art form, it is self expression, or collective expression, but it's also a test of human strength, both physical and mental

In basic football terms Maradona had a higher ceiling than anybody to have ever played the game, his genius was on another level to anybody who has ever played any sport, he did this against the hardest odds any true sporting genius has ever had to put up with

And he produced this ceiling at the very highest level possible, the most popular sporting event in the world - the centre of the world for a month - in a World Cup which was the first one Argentina had experienced free of the junta - most memorably against the country which had defeated it humiliatingly in a war four years earlier

He owned the world, no other footballer, not even Pele, has done this

He did this with an otherwise average team

He did the same in the hardest league there has ever been in football, Serie A from 1984 to 1991, with a team which had never won the league and whose people were looked down upon, ridiculed, despised by the wealthy north of Italy

The graphic of Ché Guevara that we all know means something visceral to people, a sort of a loose, romantic feeling of freedom and justice, of being young, of being a rebel, it doesn't have to make sense, but it stirs something in you, you haven't a heart if it doesn't move you somewhat

Diego was that graphic of Ché Guevara come to life on a football pitch

He was a symbol of freedom, of rebelliousness, of youth, of pure unrestrained potency, of fantasy, unlimited possibility, of exoticism, of cool, of danger, of other worldly genius

He was a rock star, preacher, prophet, stand up comedian, guerilla fighter, genius poker player, all rolled into one

He was the greatest countercultural icon ever

And to his peoples he was a redeemer and a liberator

This is what greatness is

And he suffered for it, because nobody could deal with the unconditional worship people had for him

Think you need to ease up on the hyperbole a bit Sid :-)

Maradona cared sod all for the poor people, once he was made. He had wealth beyond dreams and wanted for nothing. He was no Che certainly, if he referenced the poor people of life, it was as a convenience to make it seem he was a man against the system. If he was a counterculture icon, it was because he chose to be seen that way - it was ultimately meaningless, didn't make a blind bit of material difference to his fans. He was too busy imbibing Columbia's finest.

Pele did it at 3 World Cups, the first at 17, though granted he had better teams around him.

I define sporting greatness in simple, narrow terms; how dominant was the protagonist in their sport. Everything outside of that is superfluous context to me.

The graphic of Che means nothing to me. He was a failed military commander who got his men killed.
I don't think you could use hyperbole about Maradona

His talents, what he achieved and what he means to people is unique

The graphic of Che Guevara may mean nothing to you but it means a lot to a lot of people, and I think it's a good metaphor for how Maradona moved people, he moved people like nobody else could

Maradona was the most dominant player the sport has ever seen and the most talented

It didn't matter what team he played on, he was always dominant, he always dragged others up by their bootstraps

He never looked down on anybody who played with him, no matter how inferior

Given how superior the Barcelona teams Messi played on were, three Champions Leagues is not that great a return

I think the Argentina team of 2014 outside of Messi was also superior to Maradona's 1986 team

But I don't think these are arguments against Messi's greatness

Nor is Pele not playing in Europe an argument against his greatness

Neither is Maradona winning league after league year on year - he existed in a different football environment

Maradona won enough, and he tended to win when it really counted

Context is very important, I don't think you can measure greatness by stats across different eras, there's a tangible and a somewhat more intangible aspect to it

By your argument, Dean Rock would be Dublin's greatest player ever - but he isn't, nor is he near it - I would have his father ahead of him


GiveItToTheShooters

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7210 on: November 26, 2020, 10:09:12 PM »
Let's not carried away and let the nostalgia blind us just cos he's dead. Messi is quite comfortably clear of Maradona, even Ronaldo is.

Champion The Wonder Horse

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7211 on: November 26, 2020, 10:12:07 PM »
Anyone old enough to have seen Maradona in his pomp knows he is the GOAT. Best is the only one who comes close.

armaghniac

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7212 on: November 26, 2020, 10:19:47 PM »
Yes, Maradona is so wonderful that he is better than Best.
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Champion The Wonder Horse

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7213 on: November 26, 2020, 10:21:47 PM »
Yes, Maradona is so wonderful that he is better than Best.

He was, yes.

Armamike

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Re: Death Notices
« Reply #7214 on: November 26, 2020, 10:46:08 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.

Is longevity that important really?  Is Messi better because he has been at the top for 15 years. Maradona had around 10 years, from 1980 to 1990.  I don't think greatness should be measured in longevity. Compare it to Gaelic.  The greatest player I've seen in my lifetime was Matt Connor.  He only had 3 or 4 years.  The fact he didn't have 10-12 years doesn't diminish his greatness in my eyes. I saw enough in those 3 or 4 years.
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