Author Topic: Doping - don't trust anybody  (Read 12302 times)

Dinny Breen

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2016, 11:11:42 AM »
That doesn't make sense Dinny. Take my hyperbole above. I was relatively fast as a footballer, but I was no Jack McCaffery. Are you saying that if I doped, I'd be able to beat clean athletes at the Olympics? Are there any scientific numbers about performance gains related to doping? Any test subjects that say, Joe Bloggs ran an 11.5 100m 'clean', but after 2 years in a doping program, he now runs a 9.8?

When I speak about athletes I am talking about professional or Olympic qualifying standard. Not some old man who played a bit of county back in day  ;

I am holidays but check out Ross Tucker, he'd be a good start on improvements or just research the whole balco saga.
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imtommygunn

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2016, 11:27:30 AM »
There are wide ranging abilities of athletes at the olympics too Dinny.

I was watching the diamond league 3,000 meter steeple chase last week and the winning times were in the 8:40s to 8:50s. The qualifying times are about 9:45. Massive difference.The range in 100 meters is also probably about 0.4 seconds between personal bests.

To some degree you have a point but doping athlete always beating clean athlete is very sweeping.

I do believe Bolt is dubious and have my doubts about Farah too and the Dibaba in the 1500 meters however i don't think all of them are on it.

I really don't think Ruddisha, the 800 meter world record holder, is on it for example. He probably won't win gold either but he was at one point the best in the world.

yellowcard

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2016, 11:46:20 AM »
Track and field is a circus filled with actors and anyone who thinks otherwise is pretty naive. The argument that states that Bolt was a talented junior and is therefore likely to be clean is a red herring. Of course he was talented, most top level international athletes were already talented to begin with but the difference in a tenth of a second at that level is absolutely huge. The dedicated doper will generally beat the non doper at an elite level sport where athletes are already operating at a high standard. To a large extent the athletes themselves are the scapegoats, often the authorities, sponsors, media are just as much to blame for perpetuating the myth of abnormal performances.

AZOffaly

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2016, 12:09:18 PM »
That doesn't make sense Dinny. Take my hyperbole above. I was relatively fast as a footballer, but I was no Jack McCaffery. Are you saying that if I doped, I'd be able to beat clean athletes at the Olympics? Are there any scientific numbers about performance gains related to doping? Any test subjects that say, Joe Bloggs ran an 11.5 100m 'clean', but after 2 years in a doping program, he now runs a 9.8?

When I speak about athletes I am talking about professional or Olympic qualifying standard. Not some old man who played a bit of county back in day  ;

I am holidays but check out Ross Tucker, he'd be a good start on improvements or just research the whole balco saga.

OK, then I agree with you :)

I would love to see the stats on a test subject though, about incremental gains.

yellowcard

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AZOffaly

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2016, 12:44:01 PM »
That seems to be in endurance. I was wondering about sprinters. Power and explosiveness with speed.

Franko

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2016, 01:18:22 PM »
Chicken Nuggets?

Referring to Bolt's tongue in cheek remark that his speed is down to his diet of his favourite food... chicken nuggets.

Franko

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2016, 01:25:15 PM »
That doesn't make sense Dinny. Take my hyperbole above. I was relatively fast as a footballer, but I was no Jack McCaffery. Are you saying that if I doped, I'd be able to beat clean athletes at the Olympics? Are there any scientific numbers about performance gains related to doping? Any test subjects that say, Joe Bloggs ran an 11.5 100m 'clean', but after 2 years in a doping program, he now runs a 9.8?

When I speak about athletes I am talking about professional or Olympic qualifying standard. Not some old man who played a bit of county back in day  ;

I am holidays but check out Ross Tucker, he'd be a good start on improvements or just research the whole balco saga.

OK, then I agree with you :)

I would love to see the stats on a test subject though, about incremental gains.

Genuinely, you could do worse than read through Tucker's twitter feed (although it might take a while - he's a pretty voracious tweeter).  His conclusions seem to be generally fact based although, in fairness, I don't understand most of the biomedical stuff he talks about so would be in no position to challenge them.

imtommygunn

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2016, 02:27:36 PM »
Tucker is interesting though perhaps a bit more scientific than I would understand in this area. Is it him that gives out about the irish journalist Walsh a lot? I think it is.

It always makes me uncomfortable Coe's role in this. I know Russia are up to their neck in it but it seems very selective on them since he's been involved and sometimes you wonder with his tory background if he has political motivations there. When he was deputy all this stuff was going on. Why didn't he act on it then.

Dwain Chambers book was a good read on the sprinter stuff. Also interesting that the big catch in early noughties (was it?) of sprinters was more due to whistle blowing on Tim Montgomery not getting enough money rather than anyone being caught outright.

ludermor

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2016, 03:24:01 PM »
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Dinny Breen

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2016, 04:16:32 PM »
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Digger is a bit extreme got ratty with me because I defended Wenger on twitter after he stated Arsenal players were on PEDs because Paul Merson talked about orange gunk been injected in players. He's a cycling nut so can understand his cynism.

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yellowcard

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2016, 06:02:01 PM »
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Digger is aggressive in his accusations against dopers, thats his style. I would bet though that he is a lot closer to the truth than a complicit media, many journalists and several sporting authorities.

Why would it be so outlandish to simply question the performances of O'Sullivan and Heffernan for instance? Is it just because they are Irish. Whilst I don't think he outright accused them of doping, Heffernan's coach has served a doping ban so I think it is only right that questions be asked. Sometimes a lot more can be gained by looking at the reaction of individuals to being questioned about doping and how outspoken about it they are. You have to read between the lines and make your own mind up sometimes.   

Minder

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2016, 08:11:28 PM »
Horizon on bbc2 now
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Milltown Row2

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2016, 08:52:48 PM »
Horizon on bbc2 now

Serious stuff... Erectile dysfunction and visual impairment kidney failure heart attack liver problems and so on!!!
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

ludermor

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Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2016, 09:20:03 AM »
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Digger is aggressive in his accusations against dopers, thats his style. I would bet though that he is a lot closer to the truth than a complicit media, many journalists and several sporting authorities.

Why would it be so outlandish to simply question the performances of O'Sullivan and Heffernan for instance? Is it just because they are Irish. Whilst I don't think he outright accused them of doping, Heffernan's coach has served a doping ban so I think it is only right that questions be asked. Sometimes a lot more can be gained by looking at the reaction of individuals to being questioned about doping and how outspoken about it they are. You have to read between the lines and make your own mind up sometimes.
He goes way past being aggressive . He throws out loads of accusations and a lot of the time he will delete tweets if he is challenged. He may have a point but it can be lost in the constant accusations and conspiracies. Nobody is saying that Irish athletes should be except from any scrutiny or criticism but i would expect at least a little shred of evidence apart from the fact they beat people who were juiced up. And he most definitely did outright accuse them of doping. I followed him for a while and at the start he seemed quite interesting but after while realised you might as well be following Jim Corr.