Policing of Law Breaking Loyalist/Orange Parades

[Nally Stand]

I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat breaking the law

Fixed that for you myles. P.s. Your repeated attempt to equate residents of an area with those taking part in sectarian marches through that area is truly bizzare.

[qubdub]

Any self respecting citizen with half a brain-cell would see the wood for the trees. The quote below is absolute nonsense.

There are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.

Firstly I will start off by saying that there is NO struggle for domination (but your Unionist mentality is clearly shining through with this ill-informed assertion)

The only struggle is to get the OO to speak with residents' groups. Something they refuse to do. Residents' groups are perfectly entitled to challenge parades through their areas; especially when the OO insists on inviting bands who are unable to behave in a civilised and dignified manner. (See playing sectarian tunes outside chapels while your supporters sing along as an example of uncivilised/undignified behaviour)

Instead of ignoring the circumstances behind this particular contentious route why don't you engage in a pragmatic contextualisation of why local residents have taken issue with the behaviour of the Orange Order in the first place.

Given the pathetic antics witnessed last year, there's a strong probability that those "spurious" allegations regarding spitting and swearing are indeed true. I would certainly take the word of someone who lives there ahead of some anonymous poster on the internet - the enthusiastic manner in which you dismiss them is certainly telling.

By the way, I personally support the right to march in or through areas that are non-contentious and where residents and business owners have been consulted and have given their support.

[Myles Na G.]

Any self respecting citizen with half a brain-cell would see the wood for the trees. The quote below is absolute nonsense.

There are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.

Firstly I will start off by saying that there is NO struggle for domination (but your Unionist mentality is clearly shining through with this ill-informed assertion)

The only struggle is to get the OO to speak with residents' groups. Something they refuse to do. Residents' groups are perfectly entitled to challenge parades through their areas; especially when the OO insists on inviting bands who are unable to behave in a civilised and dignified manner. (See playing sectarian tunes outside chapels while your supporters sing along as an example of uncivilised/undignified behaviour)

Instead of ignoring the circumstances behind this particular contentious route why don't you engage in a pragmatic contextualisation of why local residents have taken issue with the behaviour of the Orange Order in the first place.

Given the pathetic antics witnessed last year, there's a strong probability that those "spurious" allegations regarding spitting and swearing are indeed true. I would certainly take the word of someone who lives there ahead of some anonymous poster on the internet - the enthusiastic manner in which you dismiss them is certainly telling.

By the way, I personally support the right to march in or through areas that are non-contentious and where residents and business owners have been consulted and have given their support.

Speaking of ill informed assertions...just because you assert that there is no struggle for domination, doesn't make that the case.

Which residents would you have the OO talk with? They've met and spoken with clergy and parishioners of St Patrick's, but it seems that's not good enough. They also have to meet with The Residents - that's the group which helped Sinn Fein make its propaganda video of the march, the one on which a spokesman for The Residents made spurious allegations about the marchers. Why would the OO want to talk with that man or his colleagues?

Also, like many other contentious marches (Garvaghy and Ardoyne, for e.g), the march down Clifton Street doesn't go 'through'a residential area. It's part of a main arterial route into the city and its mostly comprised of shops, businesses, the Orange Hall, the Indian Centre, etc. How else are the marchers to get into town if they don't use this road? Of course, they could get bussed in, but that sort of defeats the purpose. Not much of a parade if everyone has to get on a bus. The problem with only going through 'non contentious' areas is that this category changes year by year and always in one direction. I'm from north Belfast and unfortunately I'm old enough to remember the 1960s. I can remember when Orange marches came down along the Antrim Road, past the top of the New Lodge Road, before reaching Carlisle Circus and Clifton Street. They didn't need a police escort, or not much of one anyway. That route is now closed to them, just like the Garvaghy and Ormeau Roads, with Clifton Street and Ardoyne now subject to major restrictions. If I was an Orangeman or a bandsman or a supporter - and despite your ill informed assertions, I'm none of those - I'd feel my traditions were under concerted attack. I'd feel republicans were trying to teach me my place by restricting were and in what manner I could express my culture.

[deiseach]

I can remember when Orange marches came down along the Antrim Road, past the top of the New Lodge Road, before reaching Carlisle Circus and Clifton Street. They didn't need a police escort, or not much of one anyway.

Orange Order parades before the beastly Provos came on the scene.

[Nally Stand]

True Deiseach....and also, just to expand on that, did you know that the Catholic/Nationalist residents of the areas where sectarian cultural marches now take place are all rabid provos and therefor it's unfair to expect the sectarian cultural group in question to talk to them.

I can remember when Orange marches came down along the Antrim Road, past the top of the New Lodge Road, before reaching Carlisle Circus and Clifton Street. They didn't need a police escort, or not much of one anyway. That route is now closed to them, just like the Garvaghy and Ormeau Roads, with Clifton Street and Ardoyne now subject to major restrictions....If I was an Orangeman or a bandsman or a supporter, I'd feel my traditions were under concerted attack.

Ahhh those were the good old days alright, when the croppies lay down and knew their place. They're getting far to fcukin' uppity of themselves nowadays.

[Rossfan]

[. The problem with only going through 'non contentious' areas is that this category changes year by year and always in one direction. .
If I was an Orangeman or a bandsman or a supporter - and despite your ill informed assertions, I'm none of those - I'd feel my traditions were under concerted attack. I'd feel republicans were trying to teach me my place by restricting were and in what manner I could express my culture.

So what do you/they want ? Compulsory sterilisation of Catholics/Nationalists? Or herd them all into high rise blocks on some reservation??
Maybe if those parades were to become simply Religious/cultural thingys nobody would be objecting  Why don't they try that for a change??

[deiseach]

True Deiseach....and also, just to expand on that, did you know that the Catholic/Nationalist residents of the areas where sectarian cultural marches now take place are all rabid provos and therefor it's unfair to expect the sectarian cultural group in question to talk to them.

What cracks me up is the idea that it would be outrageous for the Orange Order to talk to The Residents. I would have said it would be outrageous for The Residents to have to talk to the Orange Order. There would be no soap potent enough, no water hot enough...