Donal Óg's Amalgamation Idea

[AZOffaly]

Yep johnney, that would help alright, if it were really pursued as you say. However, can you really see Croke Park taking Kilkenny to task over their treatment of football, or Limerick for their treatment of football? Actually I can see them going after Limerick, but not Kilkenny. Likewise I can't see them tackling Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal, Meath or other counties about their attitudes to hurling.

Of course the other question, as mentioned by Hardy before, is *should* they be pushing the weaker code? If the general populace of a county doesn't care, should the GAA be pushing the county board to meet certain standards in organisation of the weaker code regardless?

My opinion is strongly Yes and Yes, but I accept not everyone sees it that way.

As I've said before a couple of times, proper promotion of both games, proper development and attention to both games in every county in Ireland, plus a Central GAA drive to ensure each county adheres to it, is the utopia. But that's a long way off in my opinion. In the meantime, do we do a short term (maybe) measure like this to boost the game in those regions, or do we leave things as they are.

My fear is that nothing will happen. Some counties will play lip service, others won't even do that, and whichever is the weaker game will continue to get marginalised as more and more gets pumped into the dominant game in the county.

[Zulu]

Although it is a tough situation I'm not sure I'm comfortably with the idea that counties should be 'forced' to develop the weaker code. For example, if you pumped money into Kilkenny football might you end up with a situation in 30 years time where the footballers are like a Louth now, might win an odd Leinster title though more than likely not. While the hurlers could win an all Ireland but coułd also easily go 10 years without doing it. In other words will we have a lot of smaller counties decent in both but great in neither while large counties like Tipp, Cork and Dublin can win All Irelands in both?

I think I prefer a slowly, slowly approach. Work to develop the weaker code in areas where it could be better and if it shows signs of development keep at it, if not then forget about it. I'd prefer we focused on GAA black spots, like Galway, limerick and Derry cities rather than try to force GAA strongholds like Tyrone or Kilkenny to promote a code they seem to have little real interest in.

[fearglasmor]

I grew up in a club with zero hurling tradition, 100% football. Some time back in the 80's a passionate Clare man came home from London and joined the club. He played a bit of football allright but his passion for hurling brought out a few more "less forward" hurling men living in the town and before you knew it the club was playing junior hurling and now has underage teams as well.

I think transplanting this approach as was mentioned about separation of hurling boards etc is a better way forward than trying to replicate the success of regional teams in a few counties.
AZ, you would know the regional set up in Kerry much better than me, but I would guess that a big motivating factor for good junior footballers in Kerry wanting to play on regional teams is the increased chance of getting a Kerry jersey out of it. That incentive wouldnt be there at inter county level.
I think there are far more negatives to this proposal than positives and limited resources would be better spent in other ways.

[AZOffaly]

I grew up in a club with zero hurling tradition, 100% football. Some time back in the 80's a passionate Clare man came home from London and joined the club. He played a bit of football allright but his passion for hurling brought out a few more "less forward" hurling men living in the town and before you knew it the club was playing junior hurling and now has underage teams as well.

I think transplanting this approach as was mentioned about separation of hurling boards etc is a better way forward than trying to replicate the success of regional teams in a few counties.
AZ, you would know the regional set up in Kerry much better than me, but I would guess that a big motivating factor for good junior footballers in Kerry wanting to play on regional teams is the increased chance of getting a Kerry jersey out of it. That incentive wouldnt be there at inter county level.
I think there are far more negatives to this proposal than positives and limited resources would be better spent in other ways.

There is that, and to be honest I believe that is the biggest factor for Kerry themselves. Improving the level of competition in their championships prepares players better for IC, and also helps unearth a few diamonds in the rough (Declan O'Sullivan, Paul Galvin, etc).

However, from a players point of view, and certainly in South Kerry, the main driving factor is that they have an opportunity to win a County Championship, and they would struggle to do so with their own clubs. That's huge. Also, in areas like South Kerry, there *is* a sense of place and region, they all go to school in Cahirciveen or Waterville, and they do feel they represent Iveragh. I accept this element would not be there in this proposal.

[muppet]

My take on this idea is, it asks players to:

- travel greater distances.
- train with an ever changing group of lads they don't know.
- play for a team they have no affiliation to.
- in front on non existent crowds.
- and they'll still have NO chance of winning a trophy worth winning.



People should stop finding artificial ways to increase hurling's profile and spread. The game just iant appreciated in some places. Get over it.

I am glad you weren't in Hayes Hotel in 1884.

[Rossfan]

Looks like there will be no need for Carlow to amalgamate with anyone  U21s bet Dublin tonight in the Leinster U21 HC 

[Farrandeelin]

We'll have to split Carlow up into four etc...

[Wildweasel74]

Its only Dublin we worry when they beat one of the big guns lol

[emmetryan]

I've written up a piece on this, attack away at your leisure http://action81.com/blog/?p=7324

[Zulu]

Couldn't agree at all there Emmet, you're analogy with Dublin schools is flawed. Dublin schools hurling didn't get stronger due to the amalgamation but due to the work going on in clubs and schools at ground level to produce a better standard of hurler. The amalgamation simply allowed the best of a smaller pool to compete while waiting for the pool of talent to become big enough for schools to compete on their own. There is no similar level of ground work going on in Ulster and why would Ulster counties fund hurling development if the best of their players then go and train with the Railway cup side? No offence intended but if you are going to propose something it should have some chance of becoming a reality. Antrim being willing to field their B team is just fantasy stuff IMO.

[emmetryan]

No offence taken in the slightest Zulu. What I was trying to get across with Antrim was that without them essentially taking the lead and making big sacrifices, this won't work. Any move has to be driven by Antrim, not forced on them.

[Syferus]

Tradition isn't a valid reason not to do it either. It seems a lot of excuses thrown up against this idea stem from an assumption if something is an immediate success it isn't worthwhile. It takes money, patience and bravery to make any radical idea work.

Tradition needs to be built up, any amalgamated team would need to be created with the assumption of building a culture over ten, twenty years. It has to feed down into underage and to club level. An Ulster 'county' needs to be responsible for hurling at all levels within the province. Allowing an Armagh county board or a Tyrone county board to have responsibility for hurling when they really couldn't care less does the sport no good. The brutal reality in football-first counties is that hurling is seen as a drain on resources at worse and a 'sure isn't it grand what those lads are doing' coying sideshow at best.

No one cares about the games they play besides the players and even then a lot of them aren't particularly dedicated to sport, and why would they be? All this talk about blitzes and underage coaching is all well and good but it doesn't solve the big problem of having no avenue to top level hurling.

Where would underage football be in Tyrone or Roscommon or Cavan if their best team was playing the Tommy Murphy Cup or the Junior Football Championship every summer? That's basically the height of any hurler's ambitions if they happen to have the misfortune of being born in Mayo, Roscommon, Down, Donegal or any number of other counties. No matter how much work is done those counties would never in a million years be in a position to even consider themselves remotely able to compete for the Liam McCarthy.

Kids need something to aspire to if they are to ever reach their potential and be truly dedicated to the sport. You can do all those blitzes and coaching schemes just as well - and more likely better - within the framework of a provincial 'county'.

Create a true county out of the province and you have a chance at adding a team of real worth to the championship and strengthening the game in the areas it is strong in by giving them more competition, unity and planning.

To get a little salty - "Join, or Die". It really is that simple.

[rodney trotter]

Tradition isn't a valid reason not to do it either. It seems a lot of excuses thrown up against this idea stem from an assumption if something is an immediate success it isn't worthwhile. It takes money, patience and bravery to make any radical idea work.

Tradition needs to be built up, any amalgamated team would need to be created with the assumption of building a culture over ten, twenty years. It has to feed down into underage and to club level. An Ulster 'county' needs to be responsible for hurling at all levels within the province. Allowing an Armagh county board or a Tyrone county board to have responsibility for hurling when they really couldn't care less does the sport no good. The brutal reality in football-first counties hurling is seen as a drain on resources at worse and a 'sure isn't it grand what does lads are doing' coying sideshow at best.

No one cares about the games they play besides the players and even then a lot of them aren't particularly dedicated to sport, and why would they be? All this talk about blitzes and underage coaching is all well and good but it doesn't solve the big problem of having no avenue to top level hurling.

Where would underage football be in Tyrone or Roscommon or Cavan if their best team was playing the Tommy Murphy Cup or the Junior Football Championship every summer? That's basically the height of any hurler's ambitions if they happen to have the misfortune of being born in Mayo, Roscommon, Down, Donegal or any number of other counties. No matter how much work is done those counties would never in a million years be in a position to even consider themselves remotely able to compete for the Liam McCarthy.

Kids need something to aspire to if they are to ever reach their potential and be truly dedicated to the sport. You can do all those blitzes and coaching schemes just as well - and more likely better - within the framework of a provincial 'county'.

Create a true county out of the province and you have a chance at adding a team of real worth to the championship and strengthening the game in the areas it is strong in by giving them more competition, unity and planning.

To get a little salty - "Join, or Die". It really is that simple.

What do you mean here, as in playing in the Leinster Junior would be the only option.? All counties in football play in the provincial championships bar Kilkenny. Different story to Hurling, where Cavan don't even have a team

Martin Dunne was Cavans main player winning the Leinster Junior last year. Now on the Senior team

[Syferus]

Tradition isn't a valid reason not to do it either. It seems a lot of excuses thrown up against this idea stem from an assumption if something is an immediate success it isn't worthwhile. It takes money, patience and bravery to make any radical idea work.

Tradition needs to be built up, any amalgamated team would need to be created with the assumption of building a culture over ten, twenty years. It has to feed down into underage and to club level. An Ulster 'county' needs to be responsible for hurling at all levels within the province. Allowing an Armagh county board or a Tyrone county board to have responsibility for hurling when they really couldn't care less does the sport no good. The brutal reality in football-first counties hurling is seen as a drain on resources at worse and a 'sure isn't it grand what does lads are doing' coying sideshow at best.

No one cares about the games they play besides the players and even then a lot of them aren't particularly dedicated to sport, and why would they be? All this talk about blitzes and underage coaching is all well and good but it doesn't solve the big problem of having no avenue to top level hurling.

Where would underage football be in Tyrone or Roscommon or Cavan if their best team was playing the Tommy Murphy Cup or the Junior Football Championship every summer? That's basically the height of any hurler's ambitions if they happen to have the misfortune of being born in Mayo, Roscommon, Down, Donegal or any number of other counties. No matter how much work is done those counties would never in a million years be in a position to even consider themselves remotely able to compete for the Liam McCarthy.

Kids need something to aspire to if they are to ever reach their potential and be truly dedicated to the sport. You can do all those blitzes and coaching schemes just as well - and more likely better - within the framework of a provincial 'county'.

Create a true county out of the province and you have a chance at adding a team of real worth to the championship and strengthening the game in the areas it is strong in by giving them more competition, unity and planning.

To get a little salty - "Join, or Die". It really is that simple.

What do you mean here, as in playing in the Leinster Junior would be the only option.? All counties in football play in the provincial championships bar Kilkenny. Different story to Hurling, where Cavan don't even have a team

Martin Dunne was Cavans main player winning the Leinster Junior last year. Now on the Senior team

I mean that a hurler in Roscommon's highest ambition can only be to play Nick Rackard or at best Christy Ring Cup hurling. If footballing counties had the same glass ceiling it would nesscarily mean less dedication and less prospects of progress.

If Martin Dunne was a hurler and drove the (non-existent) Cavan hurling team to the Lory Meagher last year where would his avenue to the top level be? He'd still languish at the lower levels of the sport for all his effort.

The system in hurling is completely broken in hurling, football has a lot of problems too but few as hopeless as hurling's. The GAA should use hurling as a test case to see if they can develop a formula to make an amalgamated county work because that would present a lot more options in the future for football in certain areas.

[Syferus]

In what other sports is there absolutely no prospect of an excellent prospect never even playing at the top level? That's not 'life', that's an incredibly broken system.

Sure, you could say a player cando a Seanie Jonston if you want to get cute but that's a horrendous Sophie's choice situation where stigma abounds on both ends of the transfer.

Look, no one said it would be easy but no amount of low-fi grassroots work will change population dynamics or the dominant code in these counties. Sports is big and bold nowerdays and you need to capture kids' imaginations by giving them a team to support at the one level that attracts any mass appeal. They need heroes and they need aspirations of being those heroes one day.

You call it top-down but in reality if it's done properly it's a holistic approach, reorganising the game at every last level. It's a huge undertaking but one that I fully believe is the only route to hurling being little more than a nice diversion to the majority of counties and areas of the country.