FRC proposals...black cards, marks etc

[Milltown Row2]

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/news-archive/0411132129-football-rule-changes/

With the exception of the advantage rule I'm really not convinced by these rule changes at all. I think back to the Ireland match on Sunday, Owens cautioned O'Brein 3 times for cynical play, threatening a yellow card, that's not really combating cynicism though is it? The same scenario will now develop in GAA, instead of dishing out reds, refs will go with the less controversial option of dishing out black cards. Instead of just dragging a man down, players will now just appear to clumsily fall or come together with the attacker and simply earn a yellow because "we're not sure if he really meant it".

We've again diluted the rules and moved the goalposts, we haven't made the job of the refs any easier. Everyone, I mean everyone on here, complains about the quality of referring despite the fact almost none of us could do a superior job to the top level incumbents.

You want the quality of referring to improve then make his job easier. Allow bans for simulation in the same way we allow bans for striking. Allow video review for goals the same way there are for tries in rugby. On average a rugby match would have move tries in a game than goals in GAA so if they can make time for it then so can we. Think of all the recent injustices that could have been righted by such a move, Louth in the Leinster final etc.

The referee will judge whether he was being clumsy or deliberate. Be a shock to his system when he gets the black card for being clumsy and if its accidental then that does not warrant a yellow card anyway. Players will eventually avoid the chance of being 'clumsy' after a few players have been given the black card

[Rossfan]

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/news-archive/0411132129-football-rule-changes/

With the exception of the advantage rule I'm really not convinced by these rule changes at all. I think back to the Ireland match on Sunday, Owens cautioned O'Brein 3 times for cynical play, threatening a yellow card, that's not really combating cynicism though is it? The same scenario will now develop in GAA, instead of dishing out reds, refs will go with the less controversial option of dishing out black cards. Instead of just dragging a man down, players will now just appear to clumsily fall or come together with the attacker and simply earn a yellow because "we're not sure if he really meant it".

We've again diluted the rules and moved the goalposts, we haven't made the job of the refs any easier. Everyone, I mean everyone on here, complains about the quality of referring despite the fact almost none of us could do a superior job to the top level incumbents.

You want the quality of referring to improve then make his job easier. Allow bans for simulation in the same way we allow bans for striking. Allow video review for goals the same way there are for tries in rugby. On average a rugby match would have move tries in a game than goals in GAA so if they can make time for it then so can we. Think of all the recent injustices that could have been righted by such a move, Louth in the Leinster final etc.

The referee will judge whether he was being clumsy or deliberate. Be a shock to his system when he gets the black card for being clumsy and if its accidental then that does not warrant a yellow card anyway. Players will eventually avoid the chance of being 'clumsy' after a few players have been given the black card

The whole idea of sport is that players play within the rules and there need to be sanctions to prevent foul play getting teams/players advantages.
As Milltown says a good scatter of lads getting the "black" might just concentrate peoples' minds on the whole principle of sport  i.e trying to win but within the rules, whether you're Tyrone or Dublin Seniors or the worst Junior B outfit in Roscommon -- it's the same T.O.
Hopefully the GAA and Refs will have the courage to stick with their rules and ignore the inevitable Breheny/Harte whinging and moaning that will start around mid March.

[CD]

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/news-archive/0411132129-football-rule-changes/

With the exception of the advantage rule I'm really not convinced by these rule changes at all. I think back to the Ireland match on Sunday, Owens cautioned O'Brein 3 times for cynical play, threatening a yellow card, that's not really combating cynicism though is it? The same scenario will now develop in GAA, instead of dishing out reds, refs will go with the less controversial option of dishing out black cards. Instead of just dragging a man down, players will now just appear to clumsily fall or come together with the attacker and simply earn a yellow because "we're not sure if he really meant it".

We've again diluted the rules and moved the goalposts, we haven't made the job of the refs any easier. Everyone, I mean everyone on here, complains about the quality of referring despite the fact almost none of us could do a superior job to the top level incumbents.

You want the quality of referring to improve then make his job easier. Allow bans for simulation in the same way we allow bans for striking. Allow video review for goals the same way there are for tries in rugby. On average a rugby match would have move tries in a game than goals in GAA so if they can make time for it then so can we. Think of all the recent injustices that could have been righted by such a move, Louth in the Leinster final etc.

The referee will judge whether he was being clumsy or deliberate. Be a shock to his system when he gets the black card for being clumsy and if its accidental then that does not warrant a yellow card anyway. Players will eventually avoid the chance of being 'clumsy' after a few players have been given the black card

The whole idea of sport is that players play within the rules and there need to be sanctions to prevent foul play getting teams/players advantages.
As Milltown says a good scatter of lads getting the "black" might just concentrate peoples' minds on the whole principle of sport  i.e trying to win but within the rules, whether you're Tyrone or Dublin Seniors or the worst Junior B outfit in Roscommon -- it's the same T.O.
Hopefully the GAA and Refs will have the courage to stick with their rules and ignore the inevitable Breheny/Harte whinging and moaning that will start around mid March.

That's fair enough and I agree with the sentiment. The problem is that when players go ploughing in to honestly win a ball it could easily be construed as a deliberate foul. The game is fast, contact is part and parcel of the game and there is only one ref to cover the 60,000 square feet of grass. A lad being a split second late or overeager or simply clumsy will present a ref with a very difficult decision. I think there is a huge and unfair onus on our refs to get it right. There's also massive potential for refs to be on the receiving end of a lot of verbal abuse. I certainly don't envy them their job!

[trueblue1234]

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/news-archive/0411132129-football-rule-changes/

With the exception of the advantage rule I'm really not convinced by these rule changes at all. I think back to the Ireland match on Sunday, Owens cautioned O'Brein 3 times for cynical play, threatening a yellow card, that's not really combating cynicism though is it? The same scenario will now develop in GAA, instead of dishing out reds, refs will go with the less controversial option of dishing out black cards. Instead of just dragging a man down, players will now just appear to clumsily fall or come together with the attacker and simply earn a yellow because "we're not sure if he really meant it".

We've again diluted the rules and moved the goalposts, we haven't made the job of the refs any easier. Everyone, I mean everyone on here, complains about the quality of referring despite the fact almost none of us could do a superior job to the top level incumbents.

You want the quality of referring to improve then make his job easier. Allow bans for simulation in the same way we allow bans for striking. Allow video review for goals the same way there are for tries in rugby. On average a rugby match would have move tries in a game than goals in GAA so if they can make time for it then so can we. Think of all the recent injustices that could have been righted by such a move, Louth in the Leinster final etc.

The referee will judge whether he was being clumsy or deliberate. Be a shock to his system when he gets the black card for being clumsy and if its accidental then that does not warrant a yellow card anyway. Players will eventually avoid the chance of being 'clumsy' after a few players have been given the black card

The whole idea of sport is that players play within the rules and there need to be sanctions to prevent foul play getting teams/players advantages.
As Milltown says a good scatter of lads getting the "black" might just concentrate peoples' minds on the whole principle of sport  i.e trying to win but within the rules, whether you're Tyrone or Dublin Seniors or the worst Junior B outfit in Roscommon -- it's the same T.O.
Hopefully the GAA and Refs will have the courage to stick with their rules and ignore the inevitable Breheny/Harte whinging and moaning that will start around mid March.

Yeah lets just ignore any criticism, that'll show them we were right!!! 

[Rossfan]

So Breheny and Harte are always right
FFS get a life buckeen.

[trueblue1234]

You're the one talking about ignoring criticism before you even know if it's warrented or not. Nothing to do with Breheny or Harte always being right.   

[Rossfan]

So a lot of GAA board posters criticise it -- are the GAA to abandon it???
Just asking like 

[trueblue1234]

If they've genuine reasons and it's having a negative impact then yes. I would have thought that was obvious.

[trileacman]

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/news-archive/0411132129-football-rule-changes/

With the exception of the advantage rule I'm really not convinced by these rule changes at all. I think back to the Ireland match on Sunday, Owens cautioned O'Brein 3 times for cynical play, threatening a yellow card, that's not really combating cynicism though is it? The same scenario will now develop in GAA, instead of dishing out reds, refs will go with the less controversial option of dishing out black cards. Instead of just dragging a man down, players will now just appear to clumsily fall or come together with the attacker and simply earn a yellow because "we're not sure if he really meant it".

We've again diluted the rules and moved the goalposts, we haven't made the job of the refs any easier. Everyone, I mean everyone on here, complains about the quality of referring despite the fact almost none of us could do a superior job to the top level incumbents.

You want the quality of referring to improve then make his job easier. Allow bans for simulation in the same way we allow bans for striking. Allow video review for goals the same way there are for tries in rugby. On average a rugby match would have move tries in a game than goals in GAA so if they can make time for it then so can we. Think of all the recent injustices that could have been righted by such a move, Louth in the Leinster final etc.

The referee will judge whether he was being clumsy or deliberate. Be a shock to his system when he gets the black card for being clumsy and if its accidental then that does not warrant a yellow card anyway. Players will eventually avoid the chance of being 'clumsy' after a few players have been given the black card

You lads are banking on refs dishing out black cards like it's Christmas, now when they currently won't hand out yellow cards for yellow card offences (do you argue any different?) then why are they suddenly going to start giving out black cards for "challenges/falls" where they can afford the defender the benefit of the doubt?

[Zulu]

I think lads are trying to find issues where none exist. There is a clear distinction between black card offences and non-black card ones so if a ref is not issuing black cards where he should then I'm sure he'll stop getting games.

Adjudicating on whether a fouls is deliberate or not will be tricky and refs will get it wrong sometimes but since we can never get that 100% right should we keep the punishment for deliberate fouling lenient so some innocent players don't get punished too hard or have a stiffer punishment knowing that it will help reduce cynical fouling?

[trileacman]

I think lads are trying to find issues where none exist. There is a clear distinction between black card offences and non-black card ones so if a ref is not issuing black cards where he should then I'm sure he'll stop getting games.

Adjudicating on whether a fouls is deliberate or not will be tricky and refs will get it wrong sometimes but since we can never get that 100% right should we keep the punishment for deliberate fouling lenient so some innocent players don't get punished too hard or have a stiffer punishment knowing that it will help reduce cynical fouling?

Yeah but sure what's the point of continually trying to tackle an issue by applying a rule that won't work properly? That's what the rugger lads have tried for 10 years to do with changes to the scrum laws but the situation continues to deteriorate to the point where a once integral part of the game is now openly vilified.

Just because you hope these laws will result in a sea change in the degree of cynicism doesn't mean it will. You open the door to new kinds of problems, namely feigning trips/injury to get a lad black carded or as I have stated a relaxing of the rules that currently warrant a red or yellow card.

You want a better game then you need to encourage it, not stifle it within the narrow confines of what you consider football to be with laws and punishment and rules. Play a better advantage, make better use of technology, make the referees job easier, change the points for a win draw etc.

The most successful rule changes that rugby have brought in have been the ones that focus on positive action, namely the advantage rule and the change in the points structure, bonus point for +4 tries or for being within a converted try.

You'll get nowhere trying to punish shite play, the GAA is full of it. Reward the teams doing stuff right and you'll get somewhere.

[Milltown Row2]

I think lads are trying to find issues where none exist. There is a clear distinction between black card offences and non-black card ones so if a ref is not issuing black cards where he should then I'm sure he'll stop getting games.

Adjudicating on whether a fouls is deliberate or not will be tricky and refs will get it wrong sometimes but since we can never get that 100% right should we keep the punishment for deliberate fouling lenient so some innocent players don't get punished too hard or have a stiffer punishment knowing that it will help reduce cynical fouling?

Yeah but sure what's the point of continually trying to tackle an issue by applying a rule that won't work properly? That's what the rugger lads have tried for 10 years to do with changes to the scrum laws but the situation continues to deteriorate to the point where a once integral part of the game is now openly vilified.

Just because you hope these laws will result in a sea change in the degree of cynicism doesn't mean it will. You open the door to new kinds of problems, namely feigning trips/injury to get a lad black carded or as I have stated a relaxing of the rules that currently warrant a red or yellow card.

You want a better game then you need to encourage it, not stifle it within the narrow confines of what you consider football to be with laws and punishment and rules. Play a better advantage, make better use of technology, make the referees job easier, change the points for a win draw etc.

The most successful rule changes that rugby have brought in have been the ones that focus on positive action, namely the advantage rule and the change in the points structure, bonus point for +4 tries or for being within a converted try.

You'll get nowhere trying to punish shite play, the GAA is full of it. Reward the teams doing stuff right and you'll get somewhere.

Not going to be easy and not looking forward to the first game but it's here and lets get on with it, the referee can issue a black card for abuse to the referee, I always issued a red card for this but you may get a referee who'll happily hand out a few black cards for this, this may also cause concern to players/managers/supporters. All good fun

[take_yer_points]

I think lads are trying to find issues where none exist. There is a clear distinction between black card offences and non-black card ones so if a ref is not issuing black cards where he should then I'm sure he'll stop getting games.

Adjudicating on whether a fouls is deliberate or not will be tricky and refs will get it wrong sometimes but since we can never get that 100% right should we keep the punishment for deliberate fouling lenient so some innocent players don't get punished too hard or have a stiffer punishment knowing that it will help reduce cynical fouling?

There's a clear distinction between yellow card offences and non-yellow card ones as well - that hasn't stopped refs not applying the yellow card rule. There is often no consistency in the application of the yellow card rule within a game itself, never mind between the refs as a group. Something that's let go at the beginning of a game could earn a yellow later on in the game - we see it all the time.

So here's a good idea to try and solve it - they can't apply the current rules, so lets introduce more rules and cards striaght into the highest levels of the game without a trial in a less high profile setting.

You couldn't make it up.

[trileacman]

I'm not opposed to rule changes but I think we need to focus on encouraging good play and making the rulebook simpler.

[Zulu]

That's not quite true, rugby also introduced the penalty try and limited the time teams had to play a ball from a ruck (I think!) to deal with negative cynical play. We don't use groups or leagues so I don't think there is much scope for promoting positive play through bonus point systems. Feigning injury has come into our game already and the only way to eradicate this is through stiff suspensions that can be applied through video evidence post game.