Any Sign of White Smoke Yet?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

We have souls.

No we don't.

[Syferus]

Ok lads, enough of that crack. We should be talking about serious things with real world implications.

Like how many people do you know called Francis who will now be saddled against their will with Pope as a nickname?

[Eamonnca1]

Well in fairness anyone I know called Francis gets it shortened to Francie, so it'll only become a problem if everybody starts referring to the Pope as Francie.

[Hardy]

What has the curvature of the Earth to do with this thread? Does the Pope believe the Earth is flat?

Maybe not. But he still believes that there's something wrong with being gay. That sounds like a pretty outdated belief given the current state of scientific knowledge, wouldn't you say?

And what is the current State of scientific knowledge? enlighten us? How many universes are there and what going on at the bottom of black holes in space?

Talk to me science knows what the feck it is goin on about!

I presume you won't leave us hanging like that. You will enlighten us as to what religion has to tell us about how many universes there are and when it plans the announcement about what is going on "at the bottom" of black holes in space? And of course, which of the religions will be making the announcement and to what extent its reliability will be influenced  by this?

Anything for you hardly son!

Like Scientists, Religions disagree on the Universe on how it came to be, I would say for this exercise hardly we use a christian viewpoint.b


The Bible speaks of one Universe hardly, one universe for the good book.

Portadown does not get a mention Shane but I concur!

Some alternative opinions on things universe related hardly, enjoy!



The Bible indicates that the earth is round. One verse we can look at is Isaiah 40:22, where it mentions the "circle of the earth." From space, the earth always appears as a circle since it is round. This matches perfectly with the Bible.
Another verse to consider is Job 26:10, where it teaches that God has "inscribed" a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness. This boundary between light and darkness is where evening and morning occur. The boundary is a circle since the earth is round.

The Earth Floats in Space.

A very interesting verse to consider is Job 26:7, which states that God "hangs the earth on nothing." This might make you think of God hanging the earth like a Christmas tree ornament, but hanging it on empty space. Although this verse is written in a poetic way, it certainly seems to suggest that the earth floats in space; and indeed the earth does float in space. We now have pictures of the earth taken from space that show it floating in the cosmic void. The earth literally hangs upon nothing, just as the Bible suggests.
The Expansion of the Universe


The Bible indicates in several places that the universe has been "stretched out" or expanded. For example, Isaiah 40:22 teaches that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. This would suggest that the universe has actually increased in size since its creation. God is stretching it out, causing it to expand.
Now, this verse must have seemed very strange when it was first written. The universe certainly doesn't look as if it is expanding. After all, if you look at the night sky tonight, it will appear about the same size as it did the previous night, and the night before that.
In fact, secular scientists once believed that the universe was eternal and unchanging. The idea of an expanding universe would have been considered nonsense to most scientists of the past. So it must have been tempting for Christians to reject what the Bible teaches about the expansion of the universe.

I wonder if any Christians tried to "reinterpret" Isaiah 40:22 to read it in an unnatural way so that they wouldn't have to believe in an expanding universe. When the secular world believes one thing and the Bible teaches another, it is always tempting to think that God got the details wrong. But God is never wrong.

Most astronomers today believe that the universe is indeed expanding. In the 1920s, astronomers discovered that virtually all clusters of galaxies appear to be moving away from all other clusters; this indicates that the entire universe is expanding.
You can think of this like points on a balloon. As the balloon is inflated, all the points move farther away from each other. If the entire universe was being stretched out, the galaxies would all be moving away; and that is what they actually appear to be doing.
It is fascinating that the Bible recorded the idea of an expanding universe thousands of years before secular science came to accept the idea.
The Age of the Universe.

For example, 6,000 years ago, the moon would have been about 800 feet closer to the earth (which is not much of a change, considering the moon is a quarter of a million miles away). So this "spiraling away" of the moon is not a problem over the biblical time scale of 6,000 years. But if the earth and moon were over four billion years old (as evolutionists teach), then we would have big problems. In this case, the moon would have been so close that it would actually have been touching the earth only 1.4 billion years ago. This problem suggests that the moon can't possibly be as old as secular astronomers claim.
Secular astronomers who assume that the big bang is true must use other explanations to get around this. For example, they might assume that the rate at which the moon was receding was actually smaller in the past. But this is an extra assumption needed to make their billions-of-years model work. The simplest explanation is that the moon hasn't been around for that long. The recession of the moon is a problem for a belief in billions of years but is perfectly consistent with a young age.
Magnetic Fields of the Planets
Many of the planets of the solar system have strong magnetic fields. These fields are caused by electrical currents that decay with time. We can even measure this decay of the earth's magnetic field: it gets weaker and weaker every year. If the planets were really billions of years old (as evolutionists believe), then their magnetic fields should be extremely weak by now. Yet they are not. The outer planets of the solar system, in particular, have quite strong magnetic fields. A reasonable explanation for this is that these planets are only a few thousand years old, as the Bible teaches.
Spiral Galaxies

A galaxy is an enormous assembly of stars, interstellar gas, and dust. The galaxy in which we live is called the Milky Way; it has over 100 billion stars. Some galaxies are round or elliptical. Others have an irregular shape, but some of the most beautiful galaxies are spiral in nature, such as our own. Spiral galaxies slowly rotate, but the inner regions of the spiral rotate faster than the outer regions. This means that a spiral galaxy is constantly becoming more and more twisted up as the spiral becomes tighter. After a few hundred million years, the galaxy would be wound so tightly that the spiral structure would no longer be recognizable. According to the big-bang scenario, galaxies are supposed to be many billions of years old. Yet we do see spiral galaxies — and lots of them. This suggests that they are not nearly as old as the big bang requires. Spiral galaxies are consistent with the biblical age of the universe but are problematic for a belief in billions of years.

NASA/ESA
Comets
Comets are balls of ice and dirt. Many of them orbit the sun in elliptical paths. They spend most of their time far away from the sun, but occasionally they come very close to it. Every time a comet comes near the sun, some of its icy material is blasted away by the solar radiation. As a result, comets can orbit the sun for only so long (perhaps about 100,000 years at most) before they completely run out of material. Since we still have a lot of comets, this suggests that the solar system is much younger than 100,000 years; this agrees perfectly with the Bible's history.
Yet, secular astronomers believe the solar system is 4.5 billion years old. Since comets can't last that long, secular astronomers must assume that new comets are created to replace those that are gone. So they've invented the idea of an "Oort cloud." This is supposed to be a vast reservoir of icy masses orbiting far away from the sun. The idea is that occasionally an icy mass falls into the inner solar system to become a "new" comet. It is interesting that there is currently no evidence of an Oort cloud. And there's no reason to believe in one if we accept the creation account in Genesis. Comets are consistent with the fact that the solar system is young.



Supernatural Creation



Aside from age, there are other indications that the universe was supernaturally created as the Bible teaches. These evidences show God's creativity — not a big bang. For example, astronomers have discovered "extrasolar" planets. These are planets that orbit distant stars, not our sun. These planets have not been directly observed. Instead, they have been detected indirectly, usually by the gravitational "tug" they produce on the star they orbit. But the principles being used here are all good "operational science," the kind of testable, repeatable science that can be done in a laboratory. So we have every reason to believe that these are indeed real planets that God created.
These extrasolar planets are actually a problem for big-bang evolutionary models of solar system formation. Secular astronomers had expected that other solar systems would resemble ours, with small planets forming very closely to their star, and large planets (like Jupiter and Saturn) forming farther away. But many of these extrasolar planets are just the opposite; they are large, Jupiter-sized planets orbiting very closely to their star. This is inconsistent with evolutionary models of solar system formation, but it's not a problem for biblical creation. God can create many different varieties of solar systems, and apparently He has done just that.
Conclusion
We have seen that when the Bible addresses the topic of astronomy, it is accurate in every aspect. This shouldn't be surprising, because the Bible, which teaches that the heavens declare the glory and handiwork of God (Psalm 19:1), is the written Word of the Creator. God understands every aspect of the universe He has created, and He never makes mistakes.
In addition, the Word of God provides the correct foundation for understanding the scientific evidence. At the same time, the Bible provides more than just information on the physical universe. It also answers the most profound questions of life. Why are we here? How should we live? What happens when we die? The Word of God even answers the question of why there is death and suffering in the world.
We can have confidence that what the Bible says about our need for salvation is true, because the Bible has demonstrated itself to be accurate time after time. Showing our children how true science confirms the Bible will help them answer the evolutionary attacks they encounter at schools and in the media.

You couldn't make it up. Oh wait ...

[J70]

What has the curvature of the Earth to do with this thread? Does the Pope believe the Earth is flat?

Maybe not. But he still believes that there's something wrong with being gay. That sounds like a pretty outdated belief given the current state of scientific knowledge, wouldn't you say?

And what is the current State of scientific knowledge? enlighten us? How many universes are there and what going on at the bottom of black holes in space?

Talk to me science knows what the feck it is goin on about!

I presume you won't leave us hanging like that. You will enlighten us as to what religion has to tell us about how many universes there are and when it plans the announcement about what is going on "at the bottom" of black holes in space? And of course, which of the religions will be making the announcement and to what extent its reliability will be influenced  by this?

Anything for you hardly son!

Like Scientists, Religions disagree on the Universe on how it came to be, I would say for this exercise hardly we use a christian viewpoint.b


The Bible speaks of one Universe hardly, one universe for the good book.

Portadown does not get a mention Shane but I concur!

Some alternative opinions on things universe related hardly, enjoy!



The Bible indicates that the earth is round. One verse we can look at is Isaiah 40:22, where it mentions the "circle of the earth." From space, the earth always appears as a circle since it is round. This matches perfectly with the Bible.
Another verse to consider is Job 26:10, where it teaches that God has "inscribed" a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness. This boundary between light and darkness is where evening and morning occur. The boundary is a circle since the earth is round.

The Earth Floats in Space.

A very interesting verse to consider is Job 26:7, which states that God "hangs the earth on nothing." This might make you think of God hanging the earth like a Christmas tree ornament, but hanging it on empty space. Although this verse is written in a poetic way, it certainly seems to suggest that the earth floats in space; and indeed the earth does float in space. We now have pictures of the earth taken from space that show it floating in the cosmic void. The earth literally hangs upon nothing, just as the Bible suggests.
The Expansion of the Universe


The Bible indicates in several places that the universe has been "stretched out" or expanded. For example, Isaiah 40:22 teaches that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. This would suggest that the universe has actually increased in size since its creation. God is stretching it out, causing it to expand.
Now, this verse must have seemed very strange when it was first written. The universe certainly doesn't look as if it is expanding. After all, if you look at the night sky tonight, it will appear about the same size as it did the previous night, and the night before that.
In fact, secular scientists once believed that the universe was eternal and unchanging. The idea of an expanding universe would have been considered nonsense to most scientists of the past. So it must have been tempting for Christians to reject what the Bible teaches about the expansion of the universe.

I wonder if any Christians tried to "reinterpret" Isaiah 40:22 to read it in an unnatural way so that they wouldn't have to believe in an expanding universe. When the secular world believes one thing and the Bible teaches another, it is always tempting to think that God got the details wrong. But God is never wrong.

Most astronomers today believe that the universe is indeed expanding. In the 1920s, astronomers discovered that virtually all clusters of galaxies appear to be moving away from all other clusters; this indicates that the entire universe is expanding.
You can think of this like points on a balloon. As the balloon is inflated, all the points move farther away from each other. If the entire universe was being stretched out, the galaxies would all be moving away; and that is what they actually appear to be doing.
It is fascinating that the Bible recorded the idea of an expanding universe thousands of years before secular science came to accept the idea.
The Age of the Universe.

For example, 6,000 years ago, the moon would have been about 800 feet closer to the earth (which is not much of a change, considering the moon is a quarter of a million miles away). So this "spiraling away" of the moon is not a problem over the biblical time scale of 6,000 years. But if the earth and moon were over four billion years old (as evolutionists teach), then we would have big problems. In this case, the moon would have been so close that it would actually have been touching the earth only 1.4 billion years ago. This problem suggests that the moon can't possibly be as old as secular astronomers claim.
Secular astronomers who assume that the big bang is true must use other explanations to get around this. For example, they might assume that the rate at which the moon was receding was actually smaller in the past. But this is an extra assumption needed to make their billions-of-years model work. The simplest explanation is that the moon hasn't been around for that long. The recession of the moon is a problem for a belief in billions of years but is perfectly consistent with a young age.
Magnetic Fields of the Planets
Many of the planets of the solar system have strong magnetic fields. These fields are caused by electrical currents that decay with time. We can even measure this decay of the earth's magnetic field: it gets weaker and weaker every year. If the planets were really billions of years old (as evolutionists believe), then their magnetic fields should be extremely weak by now. Yet they are not. The outer planets of the solar system, in particular, have quite strong magnetic fields. A reasonable explanation for this is that these planets are only a few thousand years old, as the Bible teaches.
Spiral Galaxies

A galaxy is an enormous assembly of stars, interstellar gas, and dust. The galaxy in which we live is called the Milky Way; it has over 100 billion stars. Some galaxies are round or elliptical. Others have an irregular shape, but some of the most beautiful galaxies are spiral in nature, such as our own. Spiral galaxies slowly rotate, but the inner regions of the spiral rotate faster than the outer regions. This means that a spiral galaxy is constantly becoming more and more twisted up as the spiral becomes tighter. After a few hundred million years, the galaxy would be wound so tightly that the spiral structure would no longer be recognizable. According to the big-bang scenario, galaxies are supposed to be many billions of years old. Yet we do see spiral galaxies — and lots of them. This suggests that they are not nearly as old as the big bang requires. Spiral galaxies are consistent with the biblical age of the universe but are problematic for a belief in billions of years.

NASA/ESA
Comets
Comets are balls of ice and dirt. Many of them orbit the sun in elliptical paths. They spend most of their time far away from the sun, but occasionally they come very close to it. Every time a comet comes near the sun, some of its icy material is blasted away by the solar radiation. As a result, comets can orbit the sun for only so long (perhaps about 100,000 years at most) before they completely run out of material. Since we still have a lot of comets, this suggests that the solar system is much younger than 100,000 years; this agrees perfectly with the Bible's history.
Yet, secular astronomers believe the solar system is 4.5 billion years old. Since comets can't last that long, secular astronomers must assume that new comets are created to replace those that are gone. So they've invented the idea of an "Oort cloud." This is supposed to be a vast reservoir of icy masses orbiting far away from the sun. The idea is that occasionally an icy mass falls into the inner solar system to become a "new" comet. It is interesting that there is currently no evidence of an Oort cloud. And there's no reason to believe in one if we accept the creation account in Genesis. Comets are consistent with the fact that the solar system is young.



Supernatural Creation



Aside from age, there are other indications that the universe was supernaturally created as the Bible teaches. These evidences show God's creativity — not a big bang. For example, astronomers have discovered "extrasolar" planets. These are planets that orbit distant stars, not our sun. These planets have not been directly observed. Instead, they have been detected indirectly, usually by the gravitational "tug" they produce on the star they orbit. But the principles being used here are all good "operational science," the kind of testable, repeatable science that can be done in a laboratory. So we have every reason to believe that these are indeed real planets that God created.
These extrasolar planets are actually a problem for big-bang evolutionary models of solar system formation. Secular astronomers had expected that other solar systems would resemble ours, with small planets forming very closely to their star, and large planets (like Jupiter and Saturn) forming farther away. But many of these extrasolar planets are just the opposite; they are large, Jupiter-sized planets orbiting very closely to their star. This is inconsistent with evolutionary models of solar system formation, but it's not a problem for biblical creation. God can create many different varieties of solar systems, and apparently He has done just that.
Conclusion
We have seen that when the Bible addresses the topic of astronomy, it is accurate in every aspect. This shouldn't be surprising, because the Bible, which teaches that the heavens declare the glory and handiwork of God (Psalm 19:1), is the written Word of the Creator. God understands every aspect of the universe He has created, and He never makes mistakes.
In addition, the Word of God provides the correct foundation for understanding the scientific evidence. At the same time, the Bible provides more than just information on the physical universe. It also answers the most profound questions of life. Why are we here? How should we live? What happens when we die? The Word of God even answers the question of why there is death and suffering in the world.
We can have confidence that what the Bible says about our need for salvation is true, because the Bible has demonstrated itself to be accurate time after time. Showing our children how true science confirms the Bible will help them answer the evolutionary attacks they encounter at schools and in the media.

"Secular astronomers", "evolutionists"...

Geology and astronomy tells us the ages of the earth and universe, not "evolutionists".

You at least going to tell us which creationist website the above nonsense comes from?

God stretched out the heavens = Hubble and his successors' work on big bang/expanding universe!!

[theskull1]

Decent radio 4 debate on iplayer at the minute.....Christianity at the Crossroads

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r9cd6

[Itchy]

Jesus I'm sick of this pope shite on the telly, who gives a flying f**k who is pope. It makes no difference to anything as far as I can see.

[J70]

I always have to laugh at self professed Athiests/Agnostics who keep going on about the Bible or Religion.
Sure if they don't believe in it ...what matter to them at all at all 

When deities are removed from every costitution, government, justification for monarchy and law of every country, we might have a deal.

I have to laugh at the fact that you have to point out how embedded religion is in all aspects of most societies!

[Nally Stand]

Jesus I'm sick of this pope shite on the telly, who gives a flying f**k who is pope. It makes no difference to anything as far as I can see.

You're going to be raging when you realise you've accidentally stumbled into a discussion thread about the Pope then.

[stew]

Jesus I'm sick of this pope shite on the telly, who gives a flying f**k who is pope. It makes no difference to anything as far as I can see.

You're going to be raging when you realise you've accidentally stumbled into a discussion thread about the Pope then.

Now that's top notch! 

[J70]

Jesus I'm sick of this pope shite on the telly, who gives a flying f**k who is pope. It makes no difference to anything as far as I can see.

You're going to be raging when you realise you've accidentally stumbled into a discussion thread about the Pope then.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Jesus I'm sick of this pope shite on the telly, who gives a flying f**k who is pope. It makes no difference to anything as far as I can see.

You're going to be raging when you realise you've accidentally stumbled into a discussion thread about the Pope then.

Hahaha 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I always have to laugh at self professed Athiests/Agnostics who keep going on about the Bible or Religion.
Sure if they don't believe in it ...what matter to them at all at all 

When deities are removed from every costitution, government, justification for monarchy and law of every country, we might have a deal.

I have to laugh at the fact that you have to point out how embedded religion is in all aspects of most societies!

Not sure what your point is here.

[J70]

I always have to laugh at self professed Athiests/Agnostics who keep going on about the Bible or Religion.
Sure if they don't believe in it ...what matter to them at all at all 

When deities are removed from every costitution, government, justification for monarchy and law of every country, we might have a deal.

I have to laugh at the fact that you have to point out how embedded religion is in all aspects of most societies!

Not sure what your point is here.

My point is that it should be obvious to anyone who thinks about it, even for a moment, why atheists or agnostics would be concerned about religion. Basically, I was saying that it is sad that you actually had to take the time to even make that statement.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I always have to laugh at self professed Athiests/Agnostics who keep going on about the Bible or Religion.
Sure if they don't believe in it ...what matter to them at all at all 

When deities are removed from every costitution, government, justification for monarchy and law of every country, we might have a deal.

I have to laugh at the fact that you have to point out how embedded religion is in all aspects of most societies!

Not sure what your point is here.

My point is that it should be obvious to anyone who thinks about it, even for a moment, why atheists or agnostics would be concerned about religion. Basically, I was saying that it is sad that you actually had to take the time to even make that statement.

O, I was unclear whether you were in agreement or being dismissive.