The hurling/shinty crossover

[Eamonnca1]

I've been thinking about this hurling/shinty crossover game business.  Right now the arrangement is an infrequent game between "Ireland" and Scotland.  I put Ireland in quotation marks because the GAA deliberately fields a weaker team in the interests of competitive balance.  I have two problems with this:

1 - If you're going to market something as an international match, then it has to be between two international teams, i.e. the best that each country can produce. Anything artificially constrained like this is just going to be seen as contrived and fake.  (I know, the game itself is contrived etc. but bear with me)

2 - The point of international matches is that they're supposed to be high profile.  They're supposed to attract big crowds, be on every TV screen in 2 countries, and be the talk of the town.  Has the hurling/shinty international ever reached the same kind of notoriety as the likes of a Six Nations rugby match?  Packed stadiums with 80,000 people roaring their heads off?  I suspect not.

There's two types of sporting event.  One is high profile elite level which is designed with the audience in mind.  The other is lower level where the participants are more important. I think that the hurling/shinty international is trying and failing to be the first type.  Would it not be better served if we stopped codding ourselves that this is an international competition and build some sort of relationship with the Cammanachd Association that'll do more good to both organisations?

Here's what I have in mind:

1 - Scrap the "international" match and stop pretending that it's a battle of two nations.  Nobody's falling for that.
2 - Get the Ulster Council to take charge of the relationship with the Cammanachd Association as part of their outreach program.  There's a huge untapped potential for hurling in the north that's only starting to see some exploitation now as part of the CuChullain initiative, the cross-community youth hurling teams where you have protestant and catholic children playing together on the same team.  This could be part of that outreach to the community that thinks of itself as having ties to Scotland.  What better way to build bridges to them than to put them in touch with a forgotten part of their own heritage and where they actually have something in common with their catholic neighbours?
3 - Instead of one or two games a year between "international" teams, have a regular season of games between club teams in a larger league.  Do it at senior and youth levels.  Surely the CuChullain clubs would love to participate in this.  Give the youngsters a trip to Scotland every few weeks, it'd be a good motivator wouldn't it?  And instead of trying and failing to hype it as an international, just treat it like a county championship. 

Northern clubs would benefit from more competitive games in a roughly similar code, so players would hone certain skills of the game and raise the standard of hurling in Ulster where it could use a bit of help.  The Cammanachd Association would benefit from having more competitive games too.  There'd be a wee bit of traveling involved but how expensive are ferry fares these days?  There's plenty of lads crossing the water every week for soccer matches in Glasgow (Lurgan alone probably has a busload of Parkhead season ticket holders), I'm sure we can find a bit of money to put lads on a bus and take them to Scotland for games and vice versa.  And this would be a far healthier relationship to be building with Scotland than that Old Firm carry on.

Thoughts...?

[Rossfan]

That might have worked  100 years ago when the games were more alike.
The games are now so different that all the h/s games are good for is to give lads a chance to wear their Country's jersey in a sort of a game played twice a year.
I'm sure it's a grand social occasion and a bit of craic.
The only way your suggestion could ever become a reality is for hurling to revert to more ground play and less handling.
And they'd also have to go back to the camáin of the old days - not the yokes they have now with a bas on them the size of tennis rackets.

[Eamonnca1]

Hurlers playing in this compromise code just play regular hurling without being allowed to catch or solo.  The game forces the hurlers to try to keep the ball aloft where the Shinty players are at a disadvantage, so it works on your aerial ball control skills and not just your ground strike.  I think there is some value in it.

[No Soloing]

I dont think the hurling/shinty can ever be popular or high profile. The weakened Ireland team doesnt help but a big problem is that Shinty itself isnt really that popular. Its is played mostly by teams from the Highlands and crowds arent that big. I cant find the attendance for this years Camanachd final (which is the equivalent of the All-Ireland final) but the photo on this page suggests not many people attended.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/other-sports/camanachd-cup-final-glory-for-the-first-family-of-shinty.18903456

Another problem is that the hurlers skill levels and I think fitness are far above their Scottish counterparts - thats even with a weakened squad. In order to negate this I think they would have to lose a lot of the compromise and make it more like shinty. In saying that I feel a team of top hurlers would have a very good chance of beating Scotland in a pure shinty match if they had a couple of weeks to get used to the sticks and the technique.

Its a pity because I like the games. They played it before the Compromise football at Croke last year and I think they should do that so people can see it. I dont think too many people will travel to Port Laoise or whereever to watch it, but many people might go earlier if they are there to see the football anyway.

[Eamonnca1]

I've actually seen a compromise rules game in the flesh and the rules are already weighted heavily in Shinty's favor.  We played a club game here a few years ago against a visiting Scottish team and there wasn't much in it the whole way through the match.  If I recall correctly the Scottish lads won.  They don't have the hurler's aerial prowess but their ground striking skills are a sight to behold.

[No Soloing]

I was at Croke Park to see the game last year. Hurlers can move the ball up the pitch so much quicker because of the aeriel play. I like the way the hurlers have to use the stick to control the ball and hit it without using their hands. Some of the stick control that lead to some of the Irish goals this year was very good. The striking over the bar from the ground from the shinty players is very good as well though.

I think that hurling has moved on in recent years in the same way as gaelic has - I mean in terms that its run like a professional sport these days. Shinty hasnt moved on as much. So I can only see the gap widening and it becoming more and more difficult to get a compromise game

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

I dont think the hurling/shinty can ever be popular or high profile. The weakened Ireland team doesnt help but a big problem is that Shinty itself isnt really that popular. Its is played mostly by teams from the Highlands and crowds arent that big. I cant find the attendance for this years Camanachd final (which is the equivalent of the All-Ireland final) but the photo on this page suggests not many people attended.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/other-sports/camanachd-cup-final-glory-for-the-first-family-of-shinty.18903456

Another problem is that the hurlers skill levels and I think fitness are far above their Scottish counterparts - thats even with a weakened squad. In order to negate this I think they would have to lose a lot of the compromise and make it more like shinty. In saying that I feel a team of top hurlers would have a very good chance of beating Scotland in a pure shinty match if they had a couple of weeks to get used to the sticks and the technique.

The number of people who play and watch shinty is certainly much smaller than hurling. As you say, shinty is mainly a Highlands and Islands game, a fairly sparsely populated area with small towns and villages, it doesn't have the same population base to draw on as the GAA. However, that doesn't equate to shinty "not being popular". The crowd at the Camanachd Cup Final was 4000 but that has to be put in the context of the combined populations of the two villages of the competing teams being about 1500.
I think the suggestion that hurlers could beat the Scots in a shinty match with a couple of weeks practice is as ludicrous as saying shinty boys could beat the hurlers in a hurling match.

Anyway, to pick up on the points raised by Eamonn.

You could Scotland in quotation marks too as the team selected is not the best shinty players. The guys picked are the ones who are put forward by their clubs and who then attend the training sessions. In the main the players who are competing for the big shinty prizes don't bother attending training sessions for the international match. I think only 2 players who played in the Camanachd Cup Final were involved in the international. There are a few top players but also plenty who would not be picked for any shinty All Star line up. Sometimes that means a player who doesn't feature at the highest level comes forward and does well for Scotland, like Kevin Bartlett this year who was maybe Scotland's best player but has never played in the Premier Division.

Ultimately the international is a something of a novelty, it's celebrating an old link and it's worthy enough, but for players in both sports the pinnacle is to win the All-Ireland or the Camanachd rather than playing in this international. As such, you are unlikely to get the very best players. I think that's understandable. I don't see any point in pretending this is ever going to be anything more than a novelty game. More could be down to promote it and get a few more thousand on the gate but it will never ever be comparable to a Six Nations game.

I don't really see the virtue in any kind of cross sports league. One off games between clubs at youth and senior level fair enough (which goes on already to an extent) but ultimatelt shinty and hurling are different sports and it's quite obvious watching the international. It's a bit of a freak show really, it's poor viewing compared to a genuine hurling or shinty match. A league would be a waste of money and resources for me and I don't see any beneft for shinty.

I agree with Rossfan, it's a worthy enough link and gives some lads a chance to represent their country. No point IMO in trying to make it any more than that.

As for all the talk about making it more competitive it should be said that in the main these games have been pretty close. This year they weren't but then again there was a spell in the 90's when Ireland were picking a much stronger squad and regularly losing. I would imagine it will be tighter again the next few years, the games have always tended to be quite close in general.

[No Soloing]

What I meant about shinty's popularity is that it ranks well below football and rugby in Scotland. A crowd of 4000 at the biggest game of the year kind of shows that. 40,000+ go each week to see Celtic and Rangers - Murrayfield sells out for rugby matches. Shinty doesnt have the same footing as hurling does. I would guess there are a lot of people in Scotland who have never watched a shinty match.

I admit my knowledge of shinty is limited so I can only base what I say on what I have seen of the sport, but it is logical to me that would be easier to convert a hurler into a shinty player than vice versa. Hurlers already have ground skills. They dont really need to learn new skills but would have to learn a different way of doing things. That's why I think a team of the top players would be capable of playing shinty if they trained for it. Since the days when games were a lot closer hurling has moved on a lot. Gaelic games in general have. County teams and a lot of club teams are run like a professional sports team (without the money!). As far as I know this hasnt happened to the same degree in shinty. I could be wrong about this because as I said my knowledge of shinty is limited. My opinion is that the gap will grow unless Ireland continue to use players from weaker hurling counties or the rules rules are changed to make the game more shintyish.

I would see shinty teams as the equivalent of GAA club teams. Maybe an idea for the hurling/shinty match would be to get the All-Ireland club champions to play the Camanachd winners - Loughguile v Kyles Athletic.

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

What I meant about shinty's popularity is that it ranks well below football and rugby in Scotland. A crowd of 4000 at the biggest game of the year kind of shows that. 40,000+ go each week to see Celtic and Rangers - Murrayfield sells out for rugby matches. Shinty doesnt have the same footing as hurling does. I would guess there are a lot of people in Scotland who have never watched a shinty match.

I admit my knowledge of shinty is limited so I can only base what I say on what I have seen of the sport, but it is logical to me that would be easier to convert a hurler into a shinty player than vice versa. Hurlers already have ground skills. They dont really need to learn new skills but would have to learn a different way of doing things. That's why I think a team of the top players would be capable of playing shinty if they trained for it. Since the days when games were a lot closer hurling has moved on a lot. Gaelic games in general have. County teams and a lot of club teams are run like a professional sports team (without the money!). As far as I know this hasnt happened to the same degree in shinty. I could be wrong about this because as I said my knowledge of shinty is limited. My opinion is that the gap will grow unless Ireland continue to use players from weaker hurling counties or the rules rules are changed to make the game more shintyish.

I would see shinty teams as the equivalent of GAA club teams. Maybe an idea for the hurling/shinty match would be to get the All-Ireland club champions to play the Camanachd winners - Loughguile v Kyles Athletic.

In terms of numbers it does rank below football and rugby but as I explained in terms of the population of the shinty playing areas the numbers of players and crowds compares very well so it's wrong to say it's "not very popular". The vast majority of the Scottish population is in the central belt. You do actually often get better crowds at shinty than club rugby matches actually. The thousands who turn up at Murrayfield are just there for a day out, they don't actually follow rugby regularly.

I really don't think the point about the hurlers training for a couple of weeks and beating the best shinty teams is credible. The camans are very different and the idea hurlers could pick up the shinty stick and within a couple of weeks beat guys who have spent their whole lives playing the sport is patronising in the extreme.

Some posters on this thread are, IMO, reading too much into the shinty/hurling international. It's a novelty and a bit of fun to celebrate an ancient link. It's no indication of the strength of shinty or hurling because it's not shinty or hurling.

[No Soloing]

My apologies if what I said came across as patronising. That certainly wasnt my intention. I can see that the 'couple of weeks' comment can be seen as a bit flippant. But, I still feel that it wouldnt take long for good hurlers to be able to play shinty at a high level. But look, its only my opinion. If you think its ludicrous, thats fair enough. In a similar fashion many gaelic footballers have walked straight on to Irish League soccer teams with no formal soccer training. Many would have went to schools which wouldnt even had a school team to play for. But these guys would already have had ball skills, fitness and strength. I dont see how a similar logic cant apply to hurling and shinty.

[Eamonnca1]

I've seen first-hand how lacrosse players and baseball players can make the transition to hurling. No reason why there can't be cross-pollination between hurling and shinty.

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

Decent article here which touches upon the place of shinty in the communities in which it is played.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/bloggers/the-highland-line-the-league-crisis-thats-threatening-scottish-shinty.2013025515

[deiseach]

Decent article here which touches upon the place of shinty in the communities in which it is played.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/bloggers/the-highland-line-the-league-crisis-thats-threatening-scottish-shinty.2013025515

Looks messy. Just like the GAA!

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

I see Glasgow Mid Argyll mens and ladies team were over playing challenges against Portaferry at the weekend. Would appear to have been a great success and talk of Portaferry going over to Glasgow next year.

[Eamonnca1]

Good stuff.

I see that Shinty is a mainly rural sport.  Any initiatives underway to beef up its following in urban areas?