Budget 2013

[magpie seanie]

From the Irish economy website

There was an interesting study done recently for the Department of Social welfare on this issue. I noticed one table that the authors barely mentioned. Its on Page 28
http://www.socialinclusion.ie/documents/2012-10-15_DSPFoodPovertyPaper_001.pdf
18-30 years 16%
31-40 years 13%
41-50 years 11%
51-60 years 10%
61+ years 5%
The HRP for young people is 3 times higher 16% than for older people 5%.
This is a very dramatic change in a short period of time and is a direct result of social welfare policy. In the 2006 census 56% of people in the lowest decile were over 65. In 2011 it was only 24%
The basic rate of social welfare has had either a dramatic change or remained static depending on your age between 2007 and 2011.
Older people have been protected (old age pension has actually gone up about 10%) and younger people have had cuts of up to 47%
The cut in child benefit yesterday for even the poorest families continues that trend of attacking the young disproportionately.

In a way Seafóid it is democracy at its purest. The pensioners or those nearing that age vote in high numbers and regularly in all elections. They also tend to converge on TD clinics when aggrieved and definitely carry more clout than any other demographic.

Yeah - cos we're all busy trying to keep our heads above water.

[Hound]

Those of us who are trying to fund our own schemes for our retirements have been raped. I have many years left to go to retirement but already (after today's measure is introduced) I will have a huge tax bill to pay the day I retire. In today's money that tax bill will be more than the value of my house was at the top of the boom. I will either have to sell my house to pay it or hand over most of my self funded pension to pay the tax.

Where are you getting this from Muppet?

I'm pretty sure you're completely off the wall!

The impact of this is you only get tax relief for contributions to pension schemes that will give you up to €60k a year. So basically once your pension scheme is worth circa €1.5M (they havent announced what this exact figure will be) then you will get no more tax relief for contributions to it (you can still make more contributions to it if you like).

If you happen to have already more than the €1.5M (or whatever the figure is), then there is absolutely no clawback for relief you have already claimed on those contributions.

When you retire, there will be no massive tax hit that means you have to sell your house!!
You will be entitled to a tax-free lump sum, and I think this amount will be now be less that it would have been.
If your annual pension is more than €60,000, then any excess will be taxed at 52% under current rates.

Unless I've missed something completely (and I may have) I can not see anywhere where you've been raped and where your huge tax bill will arise. You'll only pay tax on the income you receive, which while not as nice as it might have been, seems fair enough.

[gerrykeegan]

Those of us who are trying to fund our own schemes for our retirements have been raped. I have many years left to go to retirement but already (after today's measure is introduced) I will have a huge tax bill to pay the day I retire. In today's money that tax bill will be more than the value of my house was at the top of the boom. I will either have to sell my house to pay it or hand over most of my self funded pension to pay the tax.

Where are you getting this from Muppet?

I'm pretty sure you're completely off the wall!

The impact of this is you only get tax relief for contributions to pension schemes that will give you up to €60k a year. So basically once your pension scheme is worth circa €1.5M (they havent announced what this exact figure will be) then you will get no more tax relief for contributions to it (you can still make more contributions to it if you like).

If you happen to have already more than the €1.5M (or whatever the figure is), then there is absolutely no clawback for relief you have already claimed on those contributions.

When you retire, there will be no massive tax hit that means you have to sell your house!!
You will be entitled to a tax-free lump sum, and I think this amount will be now be less that it would have been.
If your annual pension is more than €60,000, then any excess will be taxed at 52% under current rates.

Unless I've missed something completely (and I may have) I can not see anywhere where you've been raped and where your huge tax bill will arise. You'll only pay tax on the income you receive, which while not as nice as it might have been, seems fair enough.

I assumed Muppet has CGT issues that he will have to deal with when he retires. I guess he has invested in shares or property for his pension.

[muppet]

Those of us who are trying to fund our own schemes for our retirements have been raped. I have many years left to go to retirement but already (after today's measure is introduced) I will have a huge tax bill to pay the day I retire. In today's money that tax bill will be more than the value of my house was at the top of the boom. I will either have to sell my house to pay it or hand over most of my self funded pension to pay the tax.

Where are you getting this from Muppet?

I'm pretty sure you're completely off the wall!

The impact of this is you only get tax relief for contributions to pension schemes that will give you up to €60k a year. So basically once your pension scheme is worth circa €1.5M (they havent announced what this exact figure will be) then you will get no more tax relief for contributions to it (you can still make more contributions to it if you like).

If you happen to have already more than the €1.5M (or whatever the figure is), then there is absolutely no clawback for relief you have already claimed on those contributions.

When you retire, there will be no massive tax hit that means you have to sell your house!!
You will be entitled to a tax-free lump sum, and I think this amount will be now be less that it would have been.
If your annual pension is more than €60,000, then any excess will be taxed at 52% under current rates.

Unless I've missed something completely (and I may have) I can not see anywhere where you've been raped and where your huge tax bill will arise. You'll only pay tax on the income you receive, which while not as nice as it might have been, seems fair enough.

I assumed Muppet has CGT issues that he will have to deal with when he retires. I guess he has invested in shares or property for his pension.

Neither are corrrect.

I am part of a group scheme with strict rules.

Now imagine you are  currently funded to €60,000 and stop funding immediately due to the budget.

Under pensions rules you will still accrue a notional fund increase of the CPI (say 2.5%) annually.

If you work for another 15 years your notional accrued fund will be (€60,000 * 25) * 102.5% x 15 year compounded = €2,172,447

You notional fund minus the Fund Threshold = €672,447

@ 48% tax you now owe the revenue €322.774 the day you retire.

Now imagine you are in a fund in deficit where the Trustees insist that contributors keep paying to deal with the deficit.

That tax bill will go up drastically.

[Rossfan]

Sure you could be dead in the morning 

[Hound]

Neither are corrrect.

I am part of a group scheme with strict rules.

Now imagine you are  currently funded to €60,000 and stop funding immediately due to the budget.

Under pensions rules you will still accrue a notional fund increase of the CPI (say 2.5%) annually.

If you work for another 15 years your notional accrued fund will be (€60,000 * 25) * 102.5% x 15 year compounded = €2,172,447

You notional fund minus the Fund Threshold = €672,447

@ 48% tax you now owe the revenue €322.774 the day you retire.

Now imagine you are in a fund in deficit where the Trustees insist that contributors keep paying to deal with the deficit.

That tax bill will go up drastically.

Hadn't heard about the automatic tax on the excess on retirement.

But is the easy answer just to take out the €672k, so after paying your tax you have a net lump sum left of €350,000 to spend or invest as you like, plus an annual pension of €60,000 (gross). You're paying more tax than you would have done, but I'm not seeing the raping or the need to sell a house.

[muppet]

Neither are corrrect.

I am part of a group scheme with strict rules.

Now imagine you are  currently funded to €60,000 and stop funding immediately due to the budget.

Under pensions rules you will still accrue a notional fund increase of the CPI (say 2.5%) annually.

If you work for another 15 years your notional accrued fund will be (€60,000 * 25) * 102.5% x 15 year compounded = €2,172,447

You notional fund minus the Fund Threshold = €672,447

@ 48% tax you now owe the revenue €322.774 the day you retire.

Now imagine you are in a fund in deficit where the Trustees insist that contributors keep paying to deal with the deficit.

That tax bill will go up drastically.

Hadn't heard about the automatic tax on the excess on retirement.

But is the easy answer just to take out the €672k, so after paying your tax you have a net lump sum left of €350,000 to spend or invest as you like, plus an annual pension of €60,000 (gross). You're paying more tax than you would have done, but I'm not seeing the raping or the need to sell a house.

If I have funded over the €60,000 to date, which was perfectly legal and contractually required, I will owe hundreds of thousands of euros in tax when I retire. Either I give up all of the excess, just to be able to pay the tax, or I sell the house to keep the pension.

[muppet]

Thinking about it further all of those pensions would have been fully taxed on retirement as it is really deferred income rather than the tax haven presented by the Shinners/Joe Higgins etc.

What they are doing is forcing the tax into the coffers now, at the expense of the tax take in the 2020s, 2030s, 2040s etc. Anyone who thinks there won't be capital flight (for those who can legally move their pensions abroad) or personnel flight (for high earners who can move their jobs) is nuts. They would be very stupid to stay.

[Rossfan]

Am  I the only one who wishes all those fcukin "high earners" would get to hell out and leave the plain people of Ireland to try and muddle along as we can on average pay?
I'm sure there are loads of people who would be glad to take on their jobs for a lot less.
Where will those "high earner" people get the same money as they get here?

[muppet]

Am  I the only one who wishes all those fcukin "high earners" would get to hell out and leave the plain people of Ireland to try and muddle along as we can on average pay?
I'm sure there are loads of people who would be glad to take on their jobs for a lot less.
Where will those "high earner" people get the same money as they get here?

Those people you want to 'get the hell out' pay over half of all income tax.

You'd have some country left then.

[Rossfan]

If there is any need for the job they are doing someone else will take it on for half the cost.
The consequent savings to their employers can make us "more competitive" which according to the Taoiseach is the aim of this years Budget 
Anyway I doubt if they are paying half of all income  the tax as they have so many ways of reducing their tax liabilities.

[trileacman]

If there is any need for the job they are doing someone else will take it on for half the cost.

The consequent savings to their employers can make us "more competitive" which according to the Taoiseach is the aim of this years Budget 
Anyway I doubt if they are paying half of all income the tax as they have so many ways of reducing their tax liabilities.

Half price judges, surgeons, dentists, businessmen/women. Yeah I'm sure that'll be a roaring success.

What you're extolling is that we should all get paid the same irrespective of the job we are doing. Why don't we just abolish all institutions and set up our own communist republic, comrade?

[Rossfan]

Enda Kenny took over Cowan's job at about 60% of what Biff was getting 
Everyone on the right wing keeps telling us that senior public employees are way overpaid compared to their EU colleagues.
And talking about dentists - why does it cost twice as much to have a procedure in the 26 Cos than in the 6? Filling the dentists pocket ?
Hospital Consultants get paid an awful lot less up North for more public work.
The Shief of Staff of the (real) Oglaigh na h-Eireann i.e defence Forces gets paid more than the Brit or German equivalent . I bet there would be no shortage of takers when that post becomes vacant even if the rate of pay was halved
Then there's thye President €300k per annum FFS 
Funny how to become competitive you have to cut the pay of the little people - then complain when there's a lack of consumer spending .
The plain people and the farmers spend most of their income in the domestic economy - the well heeled usually stash in "tax efficient" thingys or spend overseas with only a small percentage of their money going into the domestic economy.
And Trileac - where did I extol that everyone should be paid the same?

[the Deel Rover]

Mighty so now they will be popping in for a cup of tea just to see if you are telling the truth . How the feck do you value a property in Todays Market. If you go by the allsops property auctions you can see that in some parts of the country houses have been sold for a little as 40k to 50k (a few not far from where i live) however i'm sure Revenue would have a canary if you put that down as a valuation . According to the indo the only place in the country where houses are valued less than 100k is Longford.


Saturday December 08 2012

The Revenue Commissioners will have the power to come in and inspect a home to assess its value for the property tax.

Property tax dodgers also face fines of €3,000 for deliberately failing to fill in forms properly or undervaluing their house, under tough new legislation.

The legislation to back up the new property tax, the Local Property Tax Bill, 2012 was published yesterday.

The bill says the Revenue will have the power to "enter on land and inspect the relevant residential property" to assess its value.

"The section obliges the person occupying the property to allow the authorised person inspect the property at all reasonable times. The Revenue Commissioners may provide the authorised person with information that is necessary to value the property," the legislation says.

The legislation also imposes a maximum fine of €3,000 on a homeowner who "fails to submit a return or fails to include all required information" having been told to do so.

A homeowner who "knowingly makes a false statement" to reduce the amount of property tax pay, will also face a maximum fine of €3,000.

When told by Revenue to provide information on who owns a house, anybody who fails to comply will be hit with a daily fine of €100.

Revenue will be drawing up a database of every house in the country, each of which will have an identification number.

Anger

Meanwhile, householders whose properties are affected by pyrite have reacted angrily to the Department of Finance's decision to include their homes in the property tax.

The Pyrite Action Group said that the inclusion of the damaged houses in the new tax added "insult to injury", while one affected homeowner told the Irish Independent she would "absolutely not" be paying the tax which is calculated according to the value of the property.

- Fionnan Sheahan and Cormac McQuinn