woman dies for want of a abortion

[The Iceman]

I think, no matter how much we all here will discuss it, the female vote - in particular, older rural women, will decide it. One would think that female participation, given the issue, will surpass other referenda.

The key to the older rural womens' vote in the gay marriage referendum was visibility - most of them had or knew of a gay relative or friend, and they were able to relate directly to giving those people a measure of social justice. I think the Oireachtas committee on the 8th, preceded by the Citizens Assembly, was a great platform for letting women tell their stories. Coming close to the referendum, I think we will hear more of these stories, and the more they are heard, the more that older, rural, female vote will relate to the issue.

And I think it is essential that all types of stories are heard - crisis pregnancies are not just about health issues for the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities. If the referendum passes the battle will move on to the 12 week limit. I think it would be an absolute tragedy if we moved from the constitution inserting itself into female autonomy, to (mostly male) politicians doing it on the basis of electoral cycles.

I have a much tougher time with this vote than I had for the marriage referendum - and that is as it should be. Everyone has their own experience and their own conception (excuse the pun) of what life is, what it means, when it starts. These are huge, consequential issues and we should all be wrestling our consciences on it. However, if I face those difficulties as a 40-something male, who has never, and hopefully never will have to face such a choice, imagine the stress or anxiety a woman, or child, in these situations have to endure. For me, it is, literally, unimaginable, which is why such phrases as "abortion on demand" ring so hollow when you think about it. This is not about allowing a mercantilist choice to be made. This is about the deepest issues of life, health, and finally, autonomy over one's body, and what that means.

The debate should be long and it will be difficult - the issue demands no less. I'll be voting to repeal, but I understand those who will not.

This isn't a female only problem? The babies aren't all female? I don't know how anyone can write when life starts is a personal decision....I've never heard any pregnant woman or couple say we're having a clump of cells...I've never heard any woman or couple who just had a miscarriage be fine about it and say it wasn't even a baby yet....
These are real people. They feel pain. They are being brutally destroyed, torn apart in cases.  Watch a video - see what's happening. Read books from former practitioners...read stories about babies that survived abortion only to have their spinal cords severed by the doctor outside the womb...read stories about babies that survived abortion who were left in a room to die and the nurses who could no longer take the screaming left the job.
I can't believe a society so intent on equality for all would so easily discount the lives of the most vulnerable. Can't bring them up because you're not mentally fit? Can't bring them up because you have no money? These are not reasons to consider an abortion? Those of you who are parents were you mentally ready to have a baby in your life? Financially ready?
People have to get out and vote....this isn't about religion - this is about life.

[easytiger95]

I think, no matter how much we all here will discuss it, the female vote - in particular, older rural women, will decide it. One would think that female participation, given the issue, will surpass other referenda.

The key to the older rural womens' vote in the gay marriage referendum was visibility - most of them had or knew of a gay relative or friend, and they were able to relate directly to giving those people a measure of social justice. I think the Oireachtas committee on the 8th, preceded by the Citizens Assembly, was a great platform for letting women tell their stories. Coming close to the referendum, I think we will hear more of these stories, and the more they are heard, the more that older, rural, female vote will relate to the issue.

And I think it is essential that all types of stories are heard - crisis pregnancies are not just about health issues for the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities. If the referendum passes the battle will move on to the 12 week limit. I think it would be an absolute tragedy if we moved from the constitution inserting itself into female autonomy, to (mostly male) politicians doing it on the basis of electoral cycles.

I have a much tougher time with this vote than I had for the marriage referendum - and that is as it should be. Everyone has their own experience and their own conception (excuse the pun) of what life is, what it means, when it starts. These are huge, consequential issues and we should all be wrestling our consciences on it. However, if I face those difficulties as a 40-something male, who has never, and hopefully never will have to face such a choice, imagine the stress or anxiety a woman, or child, in these situations have to endure. For me, it is, literally, unimaginable, which is why such phrases as "abortion on demand" ring so hollow when you think about it. This is not about allowing a mercantilist choice to be made. This is about the deepest issues of life, health, and finally, autonomy over one's body, and what that means.

The debate should be long and it will be difficult - the issue demands no less. I'll be voting to repeal, but I understand those who will not.

This isn't a female only problem? The babies aren't all female? I don't know how anyone can write when life starts is a personal decision....I've never heard any pregnant woman or couple say we're having a clump of cells...I've never heard any woman or couple who just had a miscarriage be fine about it and say it wasn't even a baby yet....
These are real people. They feel pain. They are being brutally destroyed, torn apart in cases.  Watch a video - see what's happening. Read books from former practitioners...read stories about babies that survived abortion only to have their spinal cords severed by the doctor outside the womb...read stories about babies that survived abortion who were left in a room to die and the nurses who could no longer take the screaming left the job.
I can't believe a society so intent on equality for all would so easily discount the lives of the most vulnerable. Can't bring them up because you're not mentally fit? Can't bring them up because you have no money? These are not reasons to consider an abortion? Those of you who are parents were you mentally ready to have a baby in your life? Financially ready?
People have to get out and vote....this isn't about religion - this is about life.

I have absolutely no f?!king idea how you can quote my post in relation to what you just wrote. Did you even read what I posted? Jesus Christ, I don't mind you having a different opinion from me, but at least read mine before you do. If that is your level of disengagement from the debate, from the position of others, then you have lost, you are lost, already.

Please don't misrepresent what I have posted again. No matter how passionately you feel.

[The Iceman]

I think, no matter how much we all here will discuss it, the female vote - in particular, older rural women, will decide it. One would think that female participation, given the issue, will surpass other referenda.

The key to the older rural womens' vote in the gay marriage referendum was visibility - most of them had or knew of a gay relative or friend, and they were able to relate directly to giving those people a measure of social justice. I think the Oireachtas committee on the 8th, preceded by the Citizens Assembly, was a great platform for letting women tell their stories. Coming close to the referendum, I think we will hear more of these stories, and the more they are heard, the more that older, rural, female vote will relate to the issue.

And I think it is essential that all types of stories are heard - crisis pregnancies are not just about health issues for the mother, or fatal foetal abnormalities. If the referendum passes the battle will move on to the 12 week limit. I think it would be an absolute tragedy if we moved from the constitution inserting itself into female autonomy, to (mostly male) politicians doing it on the basis of electoral cycles.

I have a much tougher time with this vote than I had for the marriage referendum - and that is as it should be. Everyone has their own experience and their own conception (excuse the pun) of what life is, what it means, when it starts. These are huge, consequential issues and we should all be wrestling our consciences on it. However, if I face those difficulties as a 40-something male, who has never, and hopefully never will have to face such a choice, imagine the stress or anxiety a woman, or child, in these situations have to endure. For me, it is, literally, unimaginable, which is why such phrases as "abortion on demand" ring so hollow when you think about it. This is not about allowing a mercantilist choice to be made. This is about the deepest issues of life, health, and finally, autonomy over one's body, and what that means.

The debate should be long and it will be difficult - the issue demands no less. I'll be voting to repeal, but I understand those who will not.

This isn't a female only problem? The babies aren't all female? I don't know how anyone can write when life starts is a personal decision....I've never heard any pregnant woman or couple say we're having a clump of cells...I've never heard any woman or couple who just had a miscarriage be fine about it and say it wasn't even a baby yet....
These are real people. They feel pain. They are being brutally destroyed, torn apart in cases.  Watch a video - see what's happening. Read books from former practitioners...read stories about babies that survived abortion only to have their spinal cords severed by the doctor outside the womb...read stories about babies that survived abortion who were left in a room to die and the nurses who could no longer take the screaming left the job.
I can't believe a society so intent on equality for all would so easily discount the lives of the most vulnerable. Can't bring them up because you're not mentally fit? Can't bring them up because you have no money? These are not reasons to consider an abortion? Those of you who are parents were you mentally ready to have a baby in your life? Financially ready?
People have to get out and vote....this isn't about religion - this is about life.

I have absolutely no f?!king idea how you can quote my post in relation to what you just wrote. Did you even read what I posted? Jesus Christ, I don't mind you having a different opinion from me, but at least read mine before you do. If that is your level of disengagement from the debate, from the position of others, then you have lost, you are lost, already.

Please don't misrepresent what I have posted again. No matter how passionately you feel.

[The Iceman]

how should I have interpreted that?

[gallsman]

I don't think anyone for a second would claim abortion is a happy, joyous thing full of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows, so it kind of begs the question, what exactly is your point?

[gallsman]

And no, it's not about life. It's about birth. You don't give a toss about any of these cases after birth. "Be grand, sure they can put it up for adoption"

[The Iceman]

And no, it's not about life. It's about birth. You don't give a toss about any of these cases after birth. "Be grand, sure they can put it up for adoption"

You don't know anything about me gallsman. I don't give a toss about any of these cases after birth? You don't know anything about what I've done for these cases after birth or what anyone has done - all you know is what you have or have not done.

[easytiger95]

Which was exactly my point. People have their own experiences and views and in such a complex debate you can disagree whilst still affording opponents respect. Which is the exact opposite of what you actually did.

And that is the last time I interpret for you.

[Esmarelda]

And no, it's not about life. It's about birth. You don't give a toss about any of these cases after birth. "Be grand, sure they can put it up for adoption"

You don't know anything about me gallsman. I don't give a toss about any of these cases after birth? You don't know anything about what I've done for these cases after birth or what anyone has done - all you know is what you have or have not done.

Iceman, do you campaign against abortion by any chance?

[Jim_Murphy_74]

On abortion, I find it difficult to see how some people can have such strong viewpoints one way or the other. It's an EXTREMELY complex issue and anyone who is 100% in one direction and dismissive of the other simply isn't engaging in an honest discussion imo

As they type these days "+1".

I can't countenance ever accepting these women who claim "bodily autonomy" means that abortion is some kind of human right.  Neither though can countenance people who could watch a woman suffer (and die in some cases) because in principle for them life begins at conception.   I think that there is a halfway house that allows compassion (and even morality!) with due medical supervision etc.

Those that are motivated to campaign seem to be the extremes so I am tending to ignore debates and would certainly not open the door to any of them.  On a personal level, as the father of a boy with Down Syndrome, I have observed too much cuntiness from both groups when they discuss people like my son.

/Jim.

[Franko]

On abortion, I find it difficult to see how some people can have such strong viewpoints one way or the other. It's an EXTREMELY complex issue and anyone who is 100% in one direction and dismissive of the other simply isn't engaging in an honest discussion imo

As they type these days "+1".

I can't countenance ever accepting these women who claim "bodily autonomy" means that abortion is some kind of human right.  Neither though can countenance people who could watch a woman suffer (and die in some cases) because in principle for them life begins at conception.   I think that there is a halfway house that allows compassion (and even morality!) with due medical supervision etc.

Those that are motivated to campaign seem to be the extremes so I am tending to ignore debates and would certainly not open the door to any of them.  On a personal level, as the father of a boy with Down Syndrome, I have observed too much cuntiness from both groups when they discuss people like my son.

/Jim.

Well put.  Just about covers it for me.

Would add what someone said earlier though - I'd hate to see it become an 'on demand'* service.

*I appreciate the negative connotations of that phrase.

[Syferus]

On abortion, I find it difficult to see how some people can have such strong viewpoints one way or the other. It's an EXTREMELY complex issue and anyone who is 100% in one direction and dismissive of the other simply isn't engaging in an honest discussion imo

As they type these days "+1".

I can't countenance ever accepting these women who claim "bodily autonomy" means that abortion is some kind of human right.  Neither though can countenance people who could watch a woman suffer (and die in some cases) because in principle for them life begins at conception.   I think that there is a halfway house that allows compassion (and even morality!) with due medical supervision etc.

Those that are motivated to campaign seem to be the extremes so I am tending to ignore debates and would certainly not open the door to any of them.  On a personal level, as the father of a boy with Down Syndrome, I have observed too much cuntiness from both groups when they discuss people like my son.

/Jim.

Well put.  Just about covers it for me.

Would add what someone said earlier though - I'd hate to see it become an 'on demand'* service.

*I appreciate the negative connotations of that phrase.

It already is.

For me this is a decision between living within reality or living in a make-believe land where these abortions won't happen at all if we don't legalise is. Governments need to meet the needs of their citizens and abortion is one of those societal needs. We can argue the term limits for it until we're both dead but an 'on demand' service is the only one that actually acknowledges real life.

[Milltown Row2]

So you are no on abortion full stop?

It's like Jehovah's refusing a blood transfusion to save their life or wife's life or even worse, letting their child possible die. It's a stubborn view and wrong..

Abortion is not religious, it's not black and white.. what needs to be discussed is when it happens, what is the timeline and the criteria for it

Nothing has changed.. you personally have a view.. you are not or will ever be (unless you transgender and develop the ability to give birth!!!) able to put yourself into the shoes of a woman that's been raped and pregnant, you also won't be in the position were you can't mentally look after a child, or face up to the fact of bringing up a child alone..

Abortion is not the only way out of this scenario. No woman should be forced to bring up a child they do not want, both for the good of the child and the mother. But there are other options such as adoption.

And my sister has been the luckiest parent in the world because of adoption... but thats one area.. I've simple view on it.. you can't say that no abortion for any reason is reasonable

[armaghniac]

Ah come on J70, you're better than that. Nobody else bothered to bite at such a painfully obvious attempt at trolling.

I certainly did not make an issue everytime someone used a WUM phrase like "marriage equality".

For me this is a decision between living within reality or living in a make-believe land where these abortions won't happen at all if we don't legalise is. Governments need to meet the needs of their citizens and abortion is one of those societal needs. We can argue the term limits for it until we're both dead but an 'on demand' service is the only one that actually acknowledges real life.

The same could be said for drink driving, speeding, underage sex, taking cocaine...
Do you favour having rules in GAA, or would you rather acknowledge the fouls go on and just let them at it?

[Syferus]

Ah come on J70, you're better than that. Nobody else bothered to bite at such a painfully obvious attempt at trolling.

I certainly did not make an issue everytime someone used a WUM phrase like "marriage equality".

For me this is a decision between living within reality or living in a make-believe land where these abortions won't happen at all if we don't legalise is. Governments need to meet the needs of their citizens and abortion is one of those societal needs. We can argue the term limits for it until we're both dead but an 'on demand' service is the only one that actually acknowledges real life.

The same could be said for drink driving, speeding, underage sex, taking cocaine...
Do you favour having rules in GAA, or would you rather acknowledge the fouls go on and just let them at it?

What a terrible attempt at a comparison to make.