Author Topic: The GPA  (Read 9372 times)

antoinse

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 01:52:57 PM »
Reading the business section of the Sunday Independent yesterday I was wondering if the new 'Legacy' business set up by the Brogan cousins, James and Bernard, may be the parting of the ways with the GPA. Perhaps  I am naive in my thinking? but I cannot seem to get it away from my head

The Biff

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 01:57:05 PM »
If I remember correctly (and that is NOT always the case), I was basically supportive of the GPA at the start, on the basis that the top level players should have some useful views to be shared.  I don't go along with the "Professionalism is inevitable" mantra.  I would hope the GPA supremos can also do their sums and recognize that we are just not a big enough market to support it.

When Croke Park accepted the GPA as a representative body, and then joined up their two award schemes into one, that's when I felt the book was really closed regarding the doubts on their legitimacy.
Never argue with a fool; He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you on experience.

Bingo

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012, 02:16:15 PM »
I think the heads in the GPA are clever enough or wise to the fact that professionalism is never going to materialise and that the monies to fund such a move aren't and never will be there.

They have moved to counter this by advising and supporting players as best they can to be able to support themselves as best they can, particularly self-employed players and high profile players. I think this is the way to go and will give the player a good platform to better himself without just throwing money at him during his short intercounty career.

I know one Monaghan hurler who got great support and guidence for expanding his business in terms of marketing and general business advice. He then got a small grant to take his business online and he is doing well for himself at present.

In the older days, good GAA players where looked after as such and done well for it eg handy jobs, doors got opened, plenty of perks etc. In the boom, players got a notion that they should be really looked after and that they do enough to have earned that right. Nowadays, the reality is that they can do well if they are willing to put in some honest work and that there is support in place to help them with this.

Hardy

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 03:07:08 PM »
I haven't changed my opinion. I disagree vehemently with the diversion of huge sums of money (is it 3 million annually - that's what was proposed anyway?) from the proper activities of the association to the benefit of an elite group of players, who are already (and rightly) the most privileged group in the association.

I think it's a farce that the group that represents a tiny minority of the players in the association and specifically excludes the rest of players from membership is constituted as the official representative body for ALL players, including those it discriminates against.

And I don't accept the arguments either that professionalism is not on their long term agenda or that professionalism is impossible. On the contrary, professionalism is inevitable unless the membership actively prevents it. We know that from the experience of virtually every other sport that has had professionalism thrust upon it against its wishes.

Of course it is not possible to professionalise the current structures but that's never how professionalism gets into a sport. The GAA could easily support a professional league of up to ten fully sponsored teams. This league would then cannibalise the rest of the game of all resources.

Anyone who doubts the GAA "market" could support a small professional league only has to look at the existence of professional leagues around Europe in small countries/regions in sports like olympic handball, water polo and even Valencian pilota. (No, me either).

sheamy

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 03:17:43 PM »
I haven't changed my opinion. I disagree vehemently with the diversion of huge sums of money (is it 3 million annually - that's what was proposed anyway?) from the proper activities of the association to the benefit of an elite group of players, who are already (and rightly) the most privileged group in the association.

I think it's a farce that the group that represents a tiny minority of the players in the association and specifically excludes the rest of players from membership is constituted as the official representative body for ALL players, including those it discriminates against.

And I don't accept the arguments either that professionalism is not on their long term agenda or that professionalism is impossible. On the contrary, professionalism is inevitable unless the membership actively prevents it. We know that from the experience of virtually every other sport that has had professionalism thrust upon it against its wishes.

Of course it is not possible to professionalise the current structures but that's never how professionalism gets into a sport. The GAA could easily support a professional league of up to ten fully sponsored teams. This league would then cannibalise the rest of the game of all resources.

Anyone who doubts the GAA "market" could support a small professional league only has to look at the existence of professional leagues around Europe in small countries/regions in sports like olympic handball, water polo and even Valencian pilota. (No, me either).

Just one problem with that post Hardy. The message wasn't clear enough. I've taken the liberty of inflating the font size.

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magpie seanie

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 03:32:38 PM »
I haven't changed my opinion. I disagree vehemently with the diversion of huge sums of money (is it 3 million annually - that's what was proposed anyway?) from the proper activities of the association to the benefit of an elite group of players, who are already (and rightly) the most privileged group in the association.

I think it's a farce that the group that represents a tiny minority of the players in the association and specifically excludes the rest of players from membership is constituted as the official representative body for ALL players, including those it discriminates against.

And I don't accept the arguments either that professionalism is not on their long term agenda or that professionalism is impossible. On the contrary, professionalism is inevitable unless the membership actively prevents it. We know that from the experience of virtually every other sport that has had professionalism thrust upon it against its wishes.

Of course it is not possible to professionalise the current structures but that's never how professionalism gets into a sport. The GAA could easily support a professional league of up to ten fully sponsored teams. This league would then cannibalise the rest of the game of all resources.

Anyone who doubts the GAA "market" could support a small professional league only has to look at the existence of professional leagues around Europe in small countries/regions in sports like olympic handball, water polo and even Valencian pilota. (No, me either).


Well said.

AQMP

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 03:37:10 PM »
I haven't changed my opinion. I disagree vehemently with the diversion of huge sums of money (is it 3 million annually - that's what was proposed anyway?) from the proper activities of the association to the benefit of an elite group of players, who are already (and rightly) the most privileged group in the association.

I think it's a farce that the group that represents a tiny minority of the players in the association and specifically excludes the rest of players from membership is constituted as the official representative body for ALL players, including those it discriminates against.

And I don't accept the arguments either that professionalism is not on their long term agenda or that professionalism is impossible. On the contrary, professionalism is inevitable unless the membership actively prevents it. We know that from the experience of virtually every other sport that has had professionalism thrust upon it against its wishes.

Of course it is not possible to professionalise the current structures but that's never how professionalism gets into a sport. The GAA could easily support a professional league of up to ten fully sponsored teams. This league would then cannibalise the rest of the game of all resources.

Anyone who doubts the GAA "market" could support a small professional league only has to look at the existence of professional leagues around Europe in small countries/regions in sports like olympic handball, water polo and even Valencian pilota. (No, me either).

I agree...

Bingo

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 04:20:24 PM »
I haven't changed my opinion. I disagree vehemently with the diversion of huge sums of money (is it 3 million annually - that's what was proposed anyway?) from the proper activities of the association to the benefit of an elite group of players, who are already (and rightly) the most privileged group in the association.

I think it's a farce that the group that represents a tiny minority of the players in the association and specifically excludes the rest of players from membership is constituted as the official representative body for ALL players, including those it discriminates against.

And I don't accept the arguments either that professionalism is not on their long term agenda or that professionalism is impossible. On the contrary, professionalism is inevitable unless the membership actively prevents it. We know that from the experience of virtually every other sport that has had professionalism thrust upon it against its wishes.

Of course it is not possible to professionalise the current structures but that's never how professionalism gets into a sport. The GAA could easily support a professional league of up to ten fully sponsored teams. This league would then cannibalise the rest of the game of all resources.

Anyone who doubts the GAA "market" could support a small professional league only has to look at the existence of professional leagues around Europe in small countries/regions in sports like olympic handball, water polo and even Valencian pilota. (No, me either).

The one thing that has remained consistent in the GAA over the years is the geographically structure. This hasn't changed and its always been county v county. For porfessionalism to even have a chance of taking root, this will have to change and I can't see it doing so.

The reason why Rugby and these other sports you have mentioned have gone pro (to a very limited extent) is that they have an international factor and demand. The GAA doesn't have that international market and will be a very long time before it does.

Talk of a ten team sponsored league is nonsense, county teams can barely get sponsorship at a basic level. Firstly this would totally break the very meaning of the GAA and you lose majority of your support base, you have basically a LOI structure for GAA. The money wouldn't be there  - say panel of 25 at average of 30,000 per year  = 750,000 before the existing running cost. No team could generate a turnover of say 2m to support itself in a season.

Shredding away any estimates or assumptions, it boils down to one basic factor - we are too small a country to support any professional sport on its own.

Hardy

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2012, 05:01:51 PM »
They have a professional women's handball league in Denmark, a country whose population is smaller than Ireland's.

INDIANA

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2012, 05:27:29 PM »
I haven't changed my opinion. I disagree vehemently with the diversion of huge sums of money (is it 3 million annually - that's what was proposed anyway?) from the proper activities of the association to the benefit of an elite group of players, who are already (and rightly) the most privileged group in the association.

I think it's a farce that the group that represents a tiny minority of the players in the association and specifically excludes the rest of players from membership is constituted as the official representative body for ALL players, including those it discriminates against.

And I don't accept the arguments either that professionalism is not on their long term agenda or that professionalism is impossible. On the contrary, professionalism is inevitable unless the membership actively prevents it. We know that from the experience of virtually every other sport that has had professionalism thrust upon it against its wishes.

Of course it is not possible to professionalise the current structures but that's never how professionalism gets into a sport. The GAA could easily support a professional league of up to ten fully sponsored teams. This league would then cannibalise the rest of the game of all resources.

Anyone who doubts the GAA "market" could support a small professional league only has to look at the existence of professional leagues around Europe in small countries/regions in sports like olympic handball, water polo and even Valencian pilota. (No, me either).

The one thing that has remained consistent in the GAA over the years is the geographically structure. This hasn't changed and its always been county v county. For porfessionalism to even have a chance of taking root, this will have to change and I can't see it doing so.

The reason why Rugby and these other sports you have mentioned have gone pro (to a very limited extent) is that they have an international factor and demand. The GAA doesn't have that international market and will be a very long time before it does.

Talk of a ten team sponsored league is nonsense, county teams can barely get sponsorship at a basic level. Firstly this would totally break the very meaning of the GAA and you lose majority of your support base, you have basically a LOI structure for GAA. The money wouldn't be there  - say panel of 25 at average of 30,000 per year  = 750,000 before the existing running cost. No team could generate a turnover of say 2m to support itself in a season.

Shredding away any estimates or assumptions, it boils down to one basic factor - we are too small a country to support any professional sport on its own.

doesn't matter what the economics of it are when players feel they should be getting something. Its a lot of the younger generation really. Their attitude is they should be getting something for all the time they give up for it. Reasoned debate doesn't matter with a lot of them.

Eamonnca1

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 05:28:53 PM »
They have a professional women's handball league in Denmark, a country whose population is smaller than Ireland's.

How's it doing?

Bingo

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 05:29:10 PM »
They have a professional women's handball league in Denmark, a country whose population is smaller than Ireland's.
Yes and they compete in the European CL tournement and the national team competes in international tournements  = increased sponsorship rights and TV rights money.

Even with this the sport is in a bit of mess despite been the second most popular sport in the country. http://www.playthegame.org/knowledge-bank/articles/handball-clubs-on-the-brink-of-insolvency-5120.html?type=98&cHash=7da30cc415abb931b0a5c635aceda145

Bingo

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 05:31:16 PM »
doesn't matter what the economics of it are when players feel they should be getting something. Its a lot of the younger generation really. Their attitude is they should be getting something for all the time they give up for it. Reasoned debate doesn't matter with a lot of them.

Without doubt this has been the issue in recent years. They look at the attendence on championship weekends, read that the All-ireland final generates 5m and they will say they will want a bit of that. It will only continue that way.

The only thing that can give is the demands that is expected off the Intercounty player and this has to reduce.

Hardy

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 05:44:11 PM »
They have a professional women's handball league in Denmark, a country whose population is smaller than Ireland's.
Yes and they compete in the European CL tournement and the national team competes in international tournements  = increased sponsorship rights and TV rights money.

Even with this the sport is in a bit of mess despite been the second most popular sport in the country. http://www.playthegame.org/knowledge-bank/articles/handball-clubs-on-the-brink-of-insolvency-5120.html?type=98&cHash=7da30cc415abb931b0a5c635aceda145

This hardly refutes the point, which is not that professionalism would necessarily be successful in the GAA but that it is inevitable that it will be tried if we allow it. Whether or not it is ultimately successful, it will will sustain at least for a while as it did in Danish Women's Handball and will ruin the game as it has Danish Women's Handball, apparently. The fact that they tried it in the domestic league (leaving the international dimension out altogether) of Danish Women's Handball, which couldn't have dreamed of the level of support GAA gets here (and remember I'm talking about the professional domestic league, not the international game) is not exactly an argument that it could never be tried in GAA. The fact that it seems to be a disaster is not surprising and more or less makes my point.

Eamonnca1

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 06:03:52 PM »
If the GAA ever gets its act together in America (overcoming the partition between New York and the rest of the country would be a good start) and breaks through and gets the attention of the mainstream audience outside the Irish diaspora, then there's a good chance that the games could go professional in America. And that's not as far fetched as you might think.