Author Topic: The GPA  (Read 9293 times)

Zulu

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2012, 07:04:07 PM »
Ah good to see the very mention of the GPA still hasn't lost its effect here, turning normal, reasoned posters into paranoid worst case scenario prophets of doom. I'm sure one of you will be on the Discovery channels 'Doomsday preppers' soon, ominously loading your shotgun as you look into the camera telling us that it isn't terrorism, global warming or the Chinese that we should fear but the GPA!!

I'd love to hear how professionalism can be forced upon us Hardy. What you seem to ignore is that outside of the GAA there is a view that the top players should get paid and there is an international dimension to all these sports so there is the potential to do so. This doesn't exist in the GAA but if it did I'd have no problem considering professionalism.

I see nothing wrong in the top players moving on from their clubs and getting paid for playing IC while the rest of us watch them strut their stuff. But this can only happen if there is a genuine international dimension.

The GPA are doing tremendous work by all accounts and have said they hope to eventually represent all players and that professionalism isn't a goal.

Hardy

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 11:57:23 AM »
Zulu, I've dealt with all the questions you raise dozens of times. No need to re-hash it all again and I'm not interested in a long drawn out debate. We won't enlighten each other and we have fundamentally differing positions on the benefits or depredations of professionalism, as evidenced in your second-last paragraph.

I do, though, object to your gratuitous portrayal of me as some kind of extremist prophet of doom. This comes, of course with the implied suggestion that you are the epitome of reason by comparison. It's especially irritating because I have taken the trouble to support my argument with references, examples and an attempt at reasoned deduction, while you offer only unsupported statements of what can and cannot be. But we'll let that slide.

So just four quick answers:

1. How can professionalism be forced on us:
- How was it forced on tennis and rugby?

2. How can there be professionalism without an international dimension?
- There is a professional Danish women's handball league, as I stated. Not international handball. The women playing in the domestic league get paid to play in that league. I could give you another dozen examples in Europe alone in sports that don’t have an 82,000-capacity stadium, a club in every village and a TV audience of 20% of the entire population for big games. But you can use Google as well as I can.

3. The GPA "hope to eventually represent all players".
- That's a strange thing to say, since they're officially supposed to be representing them already, as they have been set up by us, the GAA membership, as the representative organisation for all players. I know it's hard to do that while specifically banning them from membership of the organisation that "represents" them, so I see their difficulty. I presume, then that what they're expressing is the "hope" that they will actually represent them some day rather than banning them. Yeah, right. What's stopping them? Of course I know. And you know. And I'm surprised you'd swallow horseshit like that.

4. The GPA have said that professionalism is not a goal.
- They have also stated the direct opposite. And their leader has stated that their strategy is to conceal their goal of achieving professionalism until they achieve some lesser goals. "Small steps" I seem to remember he called the strategy. So which statement should I believe?

Zulu

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2012, 12:51:09 PM »
Lighten up Hardy, the doomsday stuff was meant as a lighthearted ribbing though it has an element of truth.

Your assertion that the GPA still has professionalism as it's goal is not supported by any evidence or logic. The GPA have stated professionalism isn't sustainable yet you still accuse them of having it as a goal without a shred of evidence yo support that.

We don't differ much on professionalism insofar as neither of us wants it we only differ in the event of it becoming a reality. You see that as being a disaster whereas I don't necessarily, though it may well be.


Now, to your 4 points;

1. Was professionalism forced on the sports you mention? It may have been against the wishes of the IRFU but forced on the rugby world, I don't think it was. All sports evolve and the sports that can afford professionalism have done so. There is no big Market to fuel a pro GAA so it differs from the sports mentioned.

2. I'm sure you're correct but it's the international dimension that creates the need for a pro Danish league. Ireland couldn't have gone pro in rugby if we were the only nation playing but once the bigger countries went pro we had to or be left behind. The decision to go pro has been a huge success with more kids playing the game now than ever before.

3. You clearly don't know what's stopping them but funding and man power is one. If you want the GPA to represent all players I'm sure you'll happily support the GAA employing enough people to listen to the moaning of a junior C footballer in Sligo.

4. The most recent one. But that's neither here nor there as the vast majority of the GAA are happy to remain amateur and without 'Market forces' dictating otherwise there is no possibility we can go pro.

Bud Wiser

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2012, 12:01:22 PM »
Well I met their "leader" there recently on two occasions and he seemed to be pretty down to earth about what he was about. There are three main reasons why I changed my mind and I suppose in a nutshell if we want to keep going to Croke Park and see players perform at the levels of fitness that we expect as a result of the hours they put in on both the training pitch and the gym then I am thinking somewhere between the doomsday scenario or running around a field of muck with not an arse in the trousers you are going to change back into when you are finished.

For example, at one stage Renault, Ulster Bank and Vodafone were all under the collar of the GAA and sponsored the All-Ireland Football series.  Then Bill Cullen copped onto himself or, the people he was fooling copped onto him and his intention to fly into space using their money to propel him. The Ulster Bank were caught feeding at the same trough as all the other Bankers and could not afford to continue sponsorship of the GAA and pay themselves €350,000 a year pensions.

Vodafone saw that there was as much money value in sponsoring Dublin instead of the GAA. So they gave Dublin a sponsorship of €6M  (SIX FRIGGING MILLION) and therein lies my first gripe.  If one county in Leinster can get €6M to throw at their teams efforts to win an All-Ireland and other counties like Laois or Carlow are feeding off scraps then the GPA for all their faults are trying to see that equal player benefits are shared equally.

I said this before on the old thread I think but Allianze sponsored the league for 20 years. In the last ten of those years neither the GAA or the sponsor made any attempt to stifle the wails of the media about the GAA being decimated because of emmigration. The GAA were glad to soak up sponsorship on the back of young lads 17yrs to 25yrs who could not get a job in the sales and service industry because they were being crucified with quotes in excess of €2000 each for car insurance from the same company.  Something like what Chartis do for GUI in golf was never even attempted and they didn't need an out of this world database to know that a young lad who was devoted to playing hurling for his club or county was a safer bet than someone driving around withn a sawn off shotgun.

There has to be balance between the facilities players have in all counties and that is what we should be talking about. Whether that is achieved by trying to put a cap on the prep funds for county teams or how it is done is what my point is. I remember one year there when JP MC M threw 5 Million at theLimerick county board and told them to go out and win an All-Ireland - had they done so I would have eaten my 1986 National Football League program.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 12:06:10 PM by Bud Wiser »
" Laois ? You can't drink pints of Guinness and talk sh*te in a pub, and play football the next day"

Bud Wiser

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2012, 04:49:49 PM »
I think I'll take this hook out now. Not worth re-baiting. No good rows on the board try as one might to start one !!
" Laois ? You can't drink pints of Guinness and talk sh*te in a pub, and play football the next day"

Rossfan

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2012, 04:58:02 PM »
Is it not time all jersey sponsorship was pooled and divided between the 32 Counties either equally or in ratio to the membership or number of clubs?
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

midLouth

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2012, 06:48:20 PM »
I think I'll take this hook out now. Not worth re-baiting. No good rows on the board try as one might to start one !!

The board is in a strange place at the moment! Very little activity, even for this time of the year!

Bud Wiser

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2012, 08:17:22 PM »
Is it not time all jersey sponsorship was pooled and divided between the 32 Counties either equally or in ratio to the membership or number of clubs?

I dont think that would work, farmers, sheep, grants and head counts would come into play. You are on the right track though, if all the sponsorship was pooled and sent to each county board with each county getting equal sized biscuit boxes full of cash with a condition that it only be spent on the promotion of hurling might be an idea.  I wouldn't give anything to London or New York at all though, or Cork for that matter.
" Laois ? You can't drink pints of Guinness and talk sh*te in a pub, and play football the next day"

heffo

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2012, 11:42:22 PM »
Is it not time all jersey sponsorship was pooled and divided between the 32 Counties either equally or in ratio to the membership or number of clubs?

You have some counties who don't even have sponsorship officers, make effectively zero effort at fundraising yet they're, paying managers and players  and thencomplaining about counties with excellent volunteer structures - why don't they go out and make and effort to sort their structures and fundraising?

Bud Wiser

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2012, 03:56:07 AM »
Because a lot of these counties are run by poor ould mullackers at club level who do exactly that,  they raise the few bob they can, give it to the county board and then when Mammy is not looking they, who have received this money to assist the players training schedule either dip their hands in the bisciuit tin or run away with the box. Failing that they will hand it to some cute hoor to upgrade his pub or hotel in the far end of Kerry.

Dublin i agree run a tight ship, they always ensured that their county team have had a solicitor or an accountant selected - on the team !!   Indeed in one period they had a solicitor, an accountant and a stockbroker along with a doctor to put the pieces back together of whoever was  caught with their hand in the kitty. Thats why the Dublin captain can raise Sam and say " see yiz all in Coppers" while down in O'Moore Park for example you might hear "has annyone got a few coppers"  or in Waterford or a few other counties "it's time to call the coppers".

Could you just imagine if  small counties like Laois were awarded Six Million sponsorship in the morning! Their old traditional ways of a pint or two in Treacys of the Heath to contemplate the chances of "pulling it off this year" could tempt a chairman and the forty people on the hurling and foot/handball comittees to transform into Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves overnight.  This is why we need the GPA to see that money is not wasted.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 04:22:52 AM by Bud Wiser »
" Laois ? You can't drink pints of Guinness and talk sh*te in a pub, and play football the next day"

Eamonnca1

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2012, 04:55:19 AM »
Because a lot of these counties are run by poor ould mullackers at club level who do exactly that,  they raise the few bob they can, give it to the county board and then when Mammy is not looking they, who have received this money to assist the players training schedule either dip their hands in the bisciuit tin or run away with the box. Failing that they will hand it to some cute hoor to upgrade his pub or hotel in the far end of Kerry.

.....

Could you just imagine if  small counties like Laois were awarded Six Million sponsorship in the morning! Their old traditional ways of a pint or two in Treacys of the Heath to contemplate the chances of "pulling it off this year" could tempt a chairman and the forty people on the hurling and foot/handball comittees to transform into Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves overnight.  This is why we need the GPA to see that money is not wasted.

That's a bit of a serious allegation.  Got any proof of that?

deiseach

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2012, 08:53:11 AM »
Is it not time all jersey sponsorship was pooled and divided between the 32 Counties either equally or in ratio to the membership or number of clubs?

You have some counties who don't even have sponsorship officers, make effectively zero effort at fundraising yet they're, paying managers and players  and thencomplaining about counties with excellent volunteer structures - why don't they go out and make and effort to sort their structures and fundraising?

I'm sure you're right about the volunteer structures. Some counties are better than others and it's going to show in their revenue. But how is the Vodafone sponsorship money a reflection of that?

heffo

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2012, 09:12:32 AM »
Is it not time all jersey sponsorship was pooled and divided between the 32 Counties either equally or in ratio to the membership or number of clubs?

You have some counties who don't even have sponsorship officers, make effectively zero effort at fundraising yet they're, paying managers and players  and thencomplaining about counties with excellent volunteer structures - why don't they go out and make and effort to sort their structures and fundraising?

I'm sure you're right about the volunteer structures. Some counties are better than others and it's going to show in their revenue. But how is the Vodafone sponsorship money a reflection of that?

Dublin negotiated a lucrative deal with Vodafone and had another similar offer on the table too - this is in line with their profile and Vodafone and the other vendor wouldn't have put up the money if they didn't think they'd see a return on their investment.

My point is you have some counties who spend astronomical amounts on preparing their senior team, outside mgt and outside players yet cannot pay their ESB bill and don't or until very recently didn't even have a sponsorship officer - if they can invest such time and energy in other pursuits yet not the basics, why should counties who go all out to have top class structures from top to bottom subsidise such counties?

deiseach

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2012, 09:41:32 AM »
Dublin negotiated a lucrative deal with Vodafone and had another similar offer on the table too - this is in line with their profile and Vodafone and the other vendor wouldn't have put up the money if they didn't think they'd see a return on their investment.

My point is you have some counties who spend astronomical amounts on preparing their senior team, outside mgt and outside players yet cannot pay their ESB bill and don't or until very recently didn't even have a sponsorship officer - if they can invest such time and energy in other pursuits yet not the basics, why should counties who go all out to have top class structures from top to bottom subsidise such counties?

I agree with your point about having no sympathy for counties living beyond their means. My own is probably the worst offender in that regard and I get right frustrated when people crib that Michael Ryan is only the coach because the demands of the likes of Donal O'Grady are too expensive. How is going for Michael Ryan in those circumstances meant to be a bad thing? Still, Vodafone aren't interested in Dublin because of their 'top class structures'. They're interested because Dublin command hundreds of thousands of eyeballs every time they play. We weren't all created equal in the GAA.

heffo

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Re: The GPA
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2012, 09:57:07 AM »
Dublin negotiated a lucrative deal with Vodafone and had another similar offer on the table too - this is in line with their profile and Vodafone and the other vendor wouldn't have put up the money if they didn't think they'd see a return on their investment.

My point is you have some counties who spend astronomical amounts on preparing their senior team, outside mgt and outside players yet cannot pay their ESB bill and don't or until very recently didn't even have a sponsorship officer - if they can invest such time and energy in other pursuits yet not the basics, why should counties who go all out to have top class structures from top to bottom subsidise such counties?

I agree with your point about having no sympathy for counties living beyond their means. My own is probably the worst offender in that regard and I get right frustrated when people crib that Michael Ryan is only the coach because the demands of the likes of Donal O'Grady are too expensive. How is going for Michael Ryan in those circumstances meant to be a bad thing? Still, Vodafone aren't interested in Dublin because of their 'top class structures'. They're interested because Dublin command hundreds of thousands of eyeballs every time they play. We weren't all created equal in the GAA.

Agree with your second point, but a few rebuttals:

The figure of €1m p.a is the maximum possible figure payable, based on Minor-Senior in both codes acheiving certain targets - clearly this will never happen and if you have 6 x teams competing and preparing for the entire duration of a competition then the costs associated rise.

There was never an issue with Dublin having a high media profile prior to the Vodafone deal - we were much lampooned in the media and on this board for being like the English soccer team - loads of hype in the media, big tv audience but a pack of losers.

If a county with no controls in place and the outside Senior football manager making the decisions from top to bottom spends way beyond their means - yet now complains they have no money - I see no reason for a county like Dublin to subsidise them. We're not communists and these proposals will never be realised.