If you don't pay up, we won't bury you say German catholic bosses

[orangeman]

I don't we've reached this stage yet. But who knows ?. The Germans are looking for their money from everybody. So instead of going to mass, just make sure and send the envelope or fill in the direct debit to ensure a Catholic funeral mass.


German Catholics lose church rights for unpaid tax

Germany's Roman Catholics are to be denied the right to Holy Communion or religious burial if they stop paying a special church tax.

A German bishops' decree which has just come into force says anyone failing to pay the tax - an extra 8% of their income tax bill - will no longer be considered a Catholic.

The bishops have been alarmed by the number of Catholics leaving the Church.

They say such a step should be seen as a serious act against the community.

All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.

"If your tax bill is for 10,000 euros, then 800 euros will go on top of that and your total tax combined will be 10,800 euros," Munich tax accountant Thomas Zitzelsberger told the BBC news website.

Catholics make up around 30% of Germany's population but the number of congregants leaving the church swelled to 181,000 in 2010, with the increase blamed on revelations of sexual abuse by German priests.

Alarmed by their declining congregations, the bishops were also pushed into action by a case involving a retired professor of church law, Hartmut Zapp, who announced in 2007 that he would no longer pay the tax but intended to remain within the Catholic faith.



Tax on Germany's Christians

25 million Catholics
Tax worth 5bn euros (2010)


24 million Protestants
Tax worth 4.3bn eurosGerman population 82 million



The Freiburg University academic said he wanted to continue praying and receiving Holy Communion and a lengthy legal case between Prof Zapp and the church will reach the Leipzig Federal Administrative Court on Wednesday.

"This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," Germany's bishops' conference said last week, in a decision endorsed by the Vatican.


Unless they pay the religious tax, Catholics will no longer be allowed receive sacraments, except before death, or work in the church and its schools or hospitals.

Without a "sign of repentance before death, a religious burial can be refused," the decree states. Opting out of the tax would also bar people from acting as godparents to Catholic children.

"This decree at this moment of time is really the wrong signal by the German bishops who know that the Catholic church is in a deep crisis," Christian Weisner from the grassroots Catholic campaign group We are Church told the BBC.

But a priest from Mannheim in south-western Germany, Father Lukas Glocker, said the tax was used to do essential good works.

"With kindergarten, with homes for elderly or unemployed, we've got really good things so I know we need the tax to help the German country to do good things."

While the decree severely limits active participation in the German Catholic Church, it does hold out some hope for anyone considering a return to the fold.

Until now, any German Catholic who stopped payment faced eventual excommunication. Although the measures laid out in the decree are similar to excommunication from the church, German observers say the word is carefully avoided in the decree.

[AZOffaly]

Weird logic. They are alarmed by the amount of people leaving the church, so they try and tax them more heavily to stay? Weird.

[Shamrock Shore]

Hope Big Phil Hogan doesnt see this and apply it to all the punters that don't/haven't pay The Household Tax.

The streets will be full of dead bodies.

[Mentalman]

Don't they have something similar in Denmark? Except there only those not of the state Protestant church pay the tithe? It was/is a way of discouraging people from being members of the Catholic church etc. Amazing how these practices still exist in much vaunted secular Northern Europe?

[The Iceman]

I think basically the point is people want to make use of the Church but not contribute to it. There is a tax applied to people who claim to be a member of a certain religion. Most people don't claim it as it isn't important to them but they want their kids Christened, first holy communion, confirmation and weddings, the same as most.
There isnt an envelope in Germany with the tax as far as i know.

[nifan]

Don't they have something similar in Denmark? Except there only those not of the state Protestant church pay the tithe? It was/is a way of discouraging people from being members of the Catholic church etc. Amazing how these practices still exist in much vaunted secular Northern Europe?

Only members of the church of denmark pat the additional tax. The government however gives it a big chunk - so all tax payers are really supporting it which is pretty unacceptable in my opinion

[theticklemister]

They wonder why a lot of people are turning away from the church??

This reminds me of another clause the church had when ye had to pay tithes to ensure you go to heaven.

[armaghniac]

Some of the attitudes here are a bit Irish, I want the service but I won't pay the tax. Let someone else pay and I'll freeload.

[johnneycool]

Some of the attitudes here are a bit Irish, I want the service but I won't pay the tax. Let someone else pay and I'll freeload.

Exactly right, those big parochial houses, with their house keepers don't keep themselves you know especially now the revenue generated from wills having dried up in the last few decades.

[Mentalman]

Don't they have something similar in Denmark? Except there only those not of the state Protestant church pay the tithe? It was/is a way of discouraging people from being members of the Catholic church etc. Amazing how these practices still exist in much vaunted secular Northern Europe?

Only members of the church of denmark pat the additional tax. The government however gives it a big chunk - so all tax payers are really supporting it which is pretty unacceptable in my opinion

Yep, got that wrong, did some digging, good article on it here:

http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/28/catholics-vs-protestants-%E2%80%93-birth-and-tax-a-case-of-religious-discrimination/

Church of Denmark charge about 1.5% of income tax to members, Catholic Church 2%, but as you said everyone contributes to the 15% subsidy of the Church of Denmark by the government.

[Mentalman]

Some of the attitudes here are a bit Irish, I want the service but I won't pay the tax. Let someone else pay and I'll freeload.

I'm not a church goer myself but I do have to attend weddings, christanings, funerals etc. and to best of my recollection these are not done free gratis, I seem to recall plenty of envelopes being handed over for the priest's time etc. in all cases. And I believe there is still a collection at most services, which to be fair is voluntary. So users of said "services", at least in Ireland, pay for them at source. Now that is Irish. It could be different in Germany of course.

[johnneycool]

Some of the attitudes here are a bit Irish, I want the service but I won't pay the tax. Let someone else pay and I'll freeload.

I'm not a church goer myself but I do have to attend weddings, christanings, funerals etc. and to best of my recollection these are not done free gratis, I seem to recall plenty of envelopes being handed over for the priest's time etc. in all cases. And I believe there is still a collection at most services, which to be fair is voluntary. So users of said "services", at least in Ireland, pay for them at source. Now that is Irish. It could be different in Germany of course.

Yes,
  the envelope is slipped to the priest in the vestry at any of those types of services I've ever been at.

Not sure if the whole lot goes into the Priests pocket or into the parish though!

[Main Street]

Don't they have something similar in Denmark? Except there only those not of the state Protestant church pay the tithe? It was/is a way of discouraging people from being members of the Catholic church etc. Amazing how these practices still exist in much vaunted secular Northern Europe?

Only members of the church of denmark pat the additional tax. The government however gives it a big chunk - so all tax payers are really supporting it which is pretty unacceptable in my opinion

Yep, got that wrong, did some digging, good article on it here:

http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/28/catholics-vs-protestants-%E2%80%93-birth-and-tax-a-case-of-religious-discrimination/

Church of Denmark charge about 1.5% of income tax to members, Catholic Church 2%, but as you said everyone contributes to the 15% subsidy of the Church of Denmark by the government.

What I suspect happened in that case of the catholic father being presented with a birth cert for his son stamped  by the State Church seal, was that the State Church were claiming yet another member in order to bolster their figures for the State subsidy per member

The father had no legal argument in that court case unless he could have sequestered  the state church membership list which had the name of his son. Then the defense argument of 'innocent mistake' would have looked very fishy. The State Church in Denmark are in pole position to abuse their administrative role in issuing birth certs. Unless parents object, they are usually presented with a State Church stamped certificate and the another unwitting member is registered to the state church and the subsidy fund.
The policy of issuing State Church sealed certs had become  so much the default for so long that the clerk at that office had totally 'forgotten' not only that the parent had the right to object but had the right to a neutral birth cert.

[Armaghgeddon]

The preist that is at my current parish is ex church of england. He has 4 children and a wife and is sitting comfortably in a 5 bedroom house that was reneovated a few years ago.

[Tony Baloney]

They wonder why a lot of people are turning away from the church??

This reminds me of another clause the church had when ye had to pay tithes to ensure you go to heaven.

Have you seen the price of diesel?!