Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations

[Myles Na G.]

And so now every April, I sit on me porch, and I watch the parades pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march, reviving old dreams of past glories
And the old men march slowly, old bones stiff and sore. They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask, what are they marching for? And I ask myself the same question.

Easter Lily my arse.

[theticklemister]

And so now every April, I sit on me porch, and I watch the parades pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march, reviving old dreams of past glories
And the old men march slowly, old bones stiff and sore. They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask, what are they marching for? And I ask myself the same question.

Easter Lily my arse.

. 

You fought for the wrong country,You died for the wrong cause
And yer ma often often said it was irelands great loss
All those fine young men a marching to a foreign shore to fight the war
When the greatest war of all was at home

Myles just loves the imperialist army.

[LondonCamanachd]

Australian Imperial Force, to be precise.

Although I don't think Eric Bogle's intention was that the dead shouldn't be commemorated.

[magpie seanie]

Interesting thread. I read the proclamation there recently and as a founding document as to what our country was supposed to be it is simply brilliant. I think any commemoration of Easter 1916 should focus on the goals outlined and promotion of fairness, equality etc as well as solemn rememberance.

Like others have mentioned I would not be comfortable attending commemorations organised by certain organisations and have never done so. My Dad is the same but we always remember in our own way. I always felt (rightly or wrongly) that SF were allowed to hijack Easter commemorations and I blame the other political parties and "mainstream Ireland" for that. In my late teens/early 20's I learned a few hard lessons in how perception appears to be vastly more important than reality for most people. It says a lot about our country and what it has sadly become.

[Nally Stand]

Interesting thread. I read the proclamation there recently and as a founding document as to what our country was supposed to be it is simply brilliant. I think any commemoration of Easter 1916 should focus on the goals outlined and promotion of fairness, equality etc as well as solemn rememberance.

Like others have mentioned I would not be comfortable attending commemorations organised by certain organisations and have never done so. My Dad is the same but we always remember in our own way. I always felt (rightly or wrongly) that SF were allowed to hijack Easter commemorations and I blame the other political parties and "mainstream Ireland" for that. In my late teens/early 20's I learned a few hard lessons in how perception appears to be vastly more important than reality for most people. It says a lot about our country and what it has sadly become.

Perception is the big thing alright. There is a widespread perception that SF have hijacked Easter but it is simply untrue. Other parties have stood away from it and as far as I'm concerned that is to their shame rather than SF's. In an ideal world there would be no party political influences into Commemorations but in reality, it's unrealistic so I for one would love to see a day when every party in Ireland which professes to be Republican, actively promoted the Easter Lily. Jaysus the Irish people should have enough self respect to be able to have pride in wearing something to remember our patriot dead.

Agree about the Proclamation too. It is so simple but so spot on. The right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, sovereignty, civil liberty, religious liberty, equal rights, equal opportunity, a resolve to pursue happiness and prosperity for every part of the nation. It's a far cry from where Ireland's leaders have brought us to today.

[LondonCamanachd]

In my late teens/early 20's I learned a few hard lessons in how perception appears to be vastly more important than reality for most people. It says a lot about our country and what it has sadly become.

It don't know if it says that much about Ireland.  Remembrance services of all sorts all over the world are jumped upon by people and parties with agendas to push.

[Myles Na G.]

And so now every April, I sit on me porch, and I watch the parades pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march, reviving old dreams of past glories
And the old men march slowly, old bones stiff and sore. They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask, what are they marching for? And I ask myself the same question.

Easter Lily my arse.

. 

You fought for the wrong country,You died for the wrong cause
And yer ma often often said it was irelands great loss
All those fine young men a marching to a foreign shore to fight the war
When the greatest war of all was at home

Myles just loves the imperialist army.

Myles isn't fond of any army or, indeed, any fool who thinks the solution to a problem is to reach for a gun.

[Myles Na G.]

Interesting thread. I read the proclamation there recently and as a founding document as to what our country was supposed to be it is simply brilliant. I think any commemoration of Easter 1916 should focus on the goals outlined and promotion of fairness, equality etc as well as solemn rememberance.

Like others have mentioned I would not be comfortable attending commemorations organised by certain organisations and have never done so. My Dad is the same but we always remember in our own way. I always felt (rightly or wrongly) that SF were allowed to hijack Easter commemorations and I blame the other political parties and "mainstream Ireland" for that. In my late teens/early 20's I learned a few hard lessons in how perception appears to be vastly more important than reality for most people. It says a lot about our country and what it has sadly become.

Perception is the big thing alright. There is a widespread perception that SF have hijacked Easter but it is simply untrue. Other parties have stood away from it and as far as I'm concerned that is to their shame rather than SF's. In an ideal world there would be no party political influences into Commemorations but in reality, it's unrealistic so I for one would love to see a day when every party in Ireland which professes to be Republican, actively promoted the Easter Lily. Jaysus the Irish people should have enough self respect to be able to have pride in wearing something to remember our patriot dead.

Agree about the Proclamation too. It is so simple but so spot on. The right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, sovereignty, civil liberty, religious liberty, equal rights, equal opportunity, a resolve to pursue happiness and prosperity for every part of the nation. It's a far cry from where Ireland's leaders have brought us to today.

There's your problem, right there. There isn't one people on this island and there hasn't been for several centuries. Irish republicans insistence that there is, is a denial of the rights of the other people on the island, who have their own ideas about sovereignty, ownership of land, etc.

[thejuice]

I don't think they meant only one type of Irish people. "The people of Ireland" referred to are all the people of this island. They wanted freedom, equal rights etc etc for all. I don't believe the proclamation made claim to the land for Ireland for a particular race, ethnicity or sect.

Sure, there were differing political allegiances however democratically, that's what the majority of the people of this island wanted.

[Nally Stand]

Interesting thread. I read the proclamation there recently and as a founding document as to what our country was supposed to be it is simply brilliant. I think any commemoration of Easter 1916 should focus on the goals outlined and promotion of fairness, equality etc as well as solemn rememberance.

Like others have mentioned I would not be comfortable attending commemorations organised by certain organisations and have never done so. My Dad is the same but we always remember in our own way. I always felt (rightly or wrongly) that SF were allowed to hijack Easter commemorations and I blame the other political parties and "mainstream Ireland" for that. In my late teens/early 20's I learned a few hard lessons in how perception appears to be vastly more important than reality for most people. It says a lot about our country and what it has sadly become.

Perception is the big thing alright. There is a widespread perception that SF have hijacked Easter but it is simply untrue. Other parties have stood away from it and as far as I'm concerned that is to their shame rather than SF's. In an ideal world there would be no party political influences into Commemorations but in reality, it's unrealistic so I for one would love to see a day when every party in Ireland which professes to be Republican, actively promoted the Easter Lily. Jaysus the Irish people should have enough self respect to be able to have pride in wearing something to remember our patriot dead.

Agree about the Proclamation too. It is so simple but so spot on. The right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, sovereignty, civil liberty, religious liberty, equal rights, equal opportunity, a resolve to pursue happiness and prosperity for every part of the nation. It's a far cry from where Ireland's leaders have brought us to today.

There's your problem, right there. There isn't one people on this island and there hasn't been for several centuries. Irish republicans insistence that there is, is a denial of the rights of the other people on the island, who have their own ideas about sovereignty, ownership of land, etc.

First of all, "The people of Ireland", as thejuice says, refers to the people who live on this island. Not that complicated. Secondly, the irony of a unionist complaining about denied rights is not lost on me.

[Myles Na G.]

Interesting thread. I read the proclamation there recently and as a founding document as to what our country was supposed to be it is simply brilliant. I think any commemoration of Easter 1916 should focus on the goals outlined and promotion of fairness, equality etc as well as solemn rememberance.

Like others have mentioned I would not be comfortable attending commemorations organised by certain organisations and have never done so. My Dad is the same but we always remember in our own way. I always felt (rightly or wrongly) that SF were allowed to hijack Easter commemorations and I blame the other political parties and "mainstream Ireland" for that. In my late teens/early 20's I learned a few hard lessons in how perception appears to be vastly more important than reality for most people. It says a lot about our country and what it has sadly become.

Perception is the big thing alright. There is a widespread perception that SF have hijacked Easter but it is simply untrue. Other parties have stood away from it and as far as I'm concerned that is to their shame rather than SF's. In an ideal world there would be no party political influences into Commemorations but in reality, it's unrealistic so I for one would love to see a day when every party in Ireland which professes to be Republican, actively promoted the Easter Lily. Jaysus the Irish people should have enough self respect to be able to have pride in wearing something to remember our patriot dead.

Agree about the Proclamation too. It is so simple but so spot on. The right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, sovereignty, civil liberty, religious liberty, equal rights, equal opportunity, a resolve to pursue happiness and prosperity for every part of the nation. It's a far cry from where Ireland's leaders have brought us to today.

There's your problem, right there. There isn't one people on this island and there hasn't been for several centuries. Irish republicans insistence that there is, is a denial of the rights of the other people on the island, who have their own ideas about sovereignty, ownership of land, etc.

First of all, "The people of Ireland", as thejuice says, refers to the people who live on this island. Not that complicated. Secondly, the irony of a unionist complaining about denied rights is not lost on me.

1. A unionist is someone who believes in and cherishes the link with the UK, so that's me out of that particular grouping.
2. You don't have to believe in the right to kill - the ultimate denial of rights - those who hold a different political opinion to be classed as a nationalist.
3. The authors of the Proclamation had no right or authority to make claims on behalf of anybody but themselves, still less on behalf of 'the people of Ireland', particularly since the term implies a consensus amongst the citizenry that they do indeed comprise a homogenous group of people who share a culture, political allegiances, etc. No such consensus was present in Ireland in 1916, had not been present since the days of the Plantation, and is still nowhere to be seen.

[Main Street]

3. The authors of the Proclamation had no right or authority to make claims on behalf of anybody but themselves, still less on behalf of 'the people of Ireland', particularly since the term implies a consensus amongst the citizenry that they do indeed comprise a homogenous group of people who share a culture, political allegiances, etc. No such consensus was present in Ireland in 1916, had not been present since the days of the Plantation, and is still nowhere to be seen.

Yet again Myles, you effortlessly miss the mark.
No implication of a consensus was made. The proclamation did not make claims on behalf of the people of Ireland.  What was proclaimed was  'standing on the fundamental right' (to strike for freedom), the entitled claim was made for the allegiance of the people of Ireland.
Allegiance was not assumed, it was claimed in a request or even a demand.
As representatives of the revolutionary tradition, they had every right to claim the allegiance of the Irish people against imperialist occupation.

[Myles Na G.]

3. The authors of the Proclamation had no right or authority to make claims on behalf of anybody but themselves, still less on behalf of 'the people of Ireland', particularly since the term implies a consensus amongst the citizenry that they do indeed comprise a homogenous group of people who share a culture, political allegiances, etc. No such consensus was present in Ireland in 1916, had not been present since the days of the Plantation, and is still nowhere to be seen.

Yet again Myles, you effortlessly miss the mark.
No implication of a consensus was made. The proclamation did not make claims on behalf of the people of Ireland.  What was proclaimed was  'standing on the fundamental right' (to strike for freedom), the entitled claim was made for the allegiance of the people of Ireland.
Allegiance was not assumed, it was claimed in a request or even a demand.
As representatives of the revolutionary tradition, they had every right to claim the allegiance of the Irish people against imperialist occupation.

'The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman'

No implication of a consensus? What about the British-Irish people in the north eastern counties whose allegiance was (and had been for centuries) to Britain, its government and its monarchy? These people, numbering nearly one quarter of the island's population, were patronisingly dismissed in the phrase 'oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government'. In other words, unionists were only unionists because they'd been duped by the big bad Brits. One day soon, the sub text runs, they'll wake up and realise they're actually true Irishmen/women after all! A flawed document, drawn up by fools, on the occasion of another event organised by those in thrall to the death cult of Irish republicanism.

[magpie seanie]

Your last line there in particular is nothing but a rant because it's wrong on so many levels I'd be here til the morning arguing it.

[thejuice]

Anyway, before we disappear down that rabbit hole of retelling our own understandings of history, I'd like to draw up a consensus of responders general feelings towards the Rising, remembrances and on possible changes to how we use it's memory in the future.

In regards current celebrations:
IT is perceived by some to have been hijacked by Sinn Fein and other republican groups, some with militant connections. This perception is disputed as false due to other parties taking less and less interest.

The majority of responders from Northern Ireland attend and observe remembrances but most would prefer political parties had no official presence at these events. In the Republic of Ireland few responders claimed to regularly observe remembrances or wear lilies. Some cited the perception of them being too closely linked to more recent violent republican movements.

In regards a change or re-evaluating how it is remembered/celebrated
The general consensus is that it should be left as it is, as a day to remember those who died and their cause, or that it would not be the appropriate event to use in other ways. Also with a Republic existing in only a part of the island it raises further problems.

Other notes
Personally I still feel in these times an event or day is needed for those Irish people to whom it concerns to observe and remember what it means to be a citizen of a Republic. A day not for celebrating "Irishness" like St. Patricks Day, but a day for showing allegiance to the state and to each other as citizens. It has little to do with a sense of identity but more of a sense of responsibility.

Now linking it to the rising anniversary seems to be unworkable. However a day to focus our minds collectively on the betterment of the state ought to be held and to reward those who do.

To give this further context here is an excerpt from an interview with Nuala O'Faolain:

NO'F: It's not, I don't think, a morally admirable country...

AC: In what way?

NO'F: Well I don't think standards of citizen are extremely high. That is as mildly as you can put it.

AC: Give me an example?

NO'F: Well I mean people are loyal to their families and loving to their families and sometimes to their mates. But that's about it. I think if there wasn't PAYE I don't think anyone would pay taxes. I mean it is not a country you can sit back and admire the way you can admire Holland. And there's the north. It's simply not a country you can admire. What it is is a country you can endlessly enjoy. But you see yourself that that's a bind. You should only enjoy what you can admire.

AC: Is it a country that endlessly provoked you to try and change it?

NO'F: Yes. It is a country in which you want influence.

AC: To do what?

NO'F: To draw attention to strokes and corruption. Or to draw attention to utterly double faced ways of thinking. I mean not that you want to give out all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q1Sx7y7YEJc