The Household charge

[Rois]

I have a 4-bedroom house in County Down. I pay £1200 in rates.
My daughter has a 4-bedroom house in Galway and is complaining about a household charge of €100.
This is my understanding of the two nations theory!

For your £1200 you get your bins lifted, streets cleaned, recycling services, clean water supply, sewerage, leisure centers, community centres, sports facilities, play-parks, dog wardens, noise wardens, environmental services, building control and a place to go when you die.

For her €100, your daughter gets nothing.

I don't really agree with this - it is an income stream for the local authorities who provide the litter wardens, water services, roads services, environmental and pollution services, planning services, funding of council staff and councillors and all the other services provided by local authorities. 

[Ulick]

I have a 4-bedroom house in County Down. I pay £1200 in rates.
My daughter has a 4-bedroom house in Galway and is complaining about a household charge of €100.
This is my understanding of the two nations theory!

For your £1200 you get your bins lifted, streets cleaned, recycling services, clean water supply, sewerage, leisure centers, community centres, sports facilities, play-parks, dog wardens, noise wardens, environmental services, building control and a place to go when you die.

For her €100, your daughter gets nothing.

I don't really agree with this - it is an income stream for the local authorities who provide the litter wardens, water services, roads services, environmental and pollution services, planning services, funding of council staff and councillors and all the other services provided by local authorities.

Sorry Rois is that not the same thing or am I missing something?

[Billys Boots]

Local authorities (north and south) provide more or less the same 'services' - they're both funded from the public purse, so essentially tax-payers (north and south) pay for everything.  As Lar pointed out, the taxes are collected in different ways.  Technically undert international taxation rules, if NI are applying rates as the funding instrument for local government, then the rated value should pay for the provision of local government in its entirity - now we know that's hardly the case in NI, don't we?

[Ulick]

Local authorities (north and south) provide more or less the same 'services' - they're both funded from the public purse, so essentially tax-payers (north and south) pay for everything.  As Lar pointed out, the taxes are collected in different ways.  Technically undert international taxation rules, if NI are applying rates as the funding instrument for local government, then the rated value should pay for the provision of local government in its entirity - now we know that's hardly the case in NI, don't we?

They may provide the same services but not with the property tax which I was addressing in reply to Leo's point. However while we are on it as a very frequent visitor to Mexico I would say without much doubt that rate payers in the north are much better off in terms of local services and value for money with the rates than compadres in the south. You can do practically nothing in the south without some fecker standing his hand out. 

Let me see. On a Thursday night I can put my bin out and have it collected first thing on a Friday morning for no extra charge. After taking a half day I can take the children over to the swimming pool paying about £3 for the hour (a nice clean and hygienic one at that). After that I can shoot down the toll-free M1 and visit the animal and rare breed sanctuary petting farm at Tannaghmore Gardens (for free) - hell I'll even throw a few logs in the boot of the car for burning later. Then I can either visit the substantial and well maintained play-park or take a nature walk around Oxford Island Nature Reserve (again for no charge and throwing a few logs in the boot). On my way home to Belfast, I'll maybe pick-up a takeaway at the local chipper, it's a good one, clean and hygienic - I know that from the 'stars on the door' sticker provided by my local council. After dinner I might take the children out to Cherryvale or Ormeau Park, both having substantial and well maintain play facilities (for free). While there I can watch the local GAA team play on the council provided football and hurling pitches. After giving the children a bath later (with water I don't have to pay extra for), I'll maybe light the stove - a good job, installed it myself and I know it's safe because local building control came down and certified it (for free). While they were there they took away the old bulky one I couldn't lift (for free). When the children are all down, I might go out for a pint again in a nice clean and hygienic hostelry with jacks you aren't afraid to walk into, because the local council inspect it on a regular basis.

Now I'm a frequent visitor to the south and would stay in Wexford for at least two months of the year as well as other parts of the country. I know for a fact that at each point in the day described above there'll either be someone stood with their hand out or I'd be getting a bill somewhere along the line. And if they're not I'll most likely have to avoid the needles on the ground as the children come down the slide or watch out for broken tiles in the swimming pool as we prepare to jump into heavily chlorinated pissy water.

[deiseach]

Let me see. On a Thursday night I can put my bin out and have it collected first thing on a Friday morning for no extra charge. After taking a half day I can take the children over to the swimming pool paying about £3 for the hour (a nice clean and hygienic one at that). After that I can shoot down the toll-free M1 and visit the animal and rare breed sanctuary petting farm at Tannaghmore Gardens (for free) - hell I'll even throw a few logs in the boot of the car for burning later. Then I can either visit the substantial and well maintained play-park or take a nature walk around Oxford Island Nature Reserve (again for no charge and throwing a few logs in the boot). On my way home to Belfast, I'll maybe pick-up a takeaway at the local chipper, it's a good one, clean and hygienic - I know that from the 'stars on the door' sticker provided by my local council. After dinner I might take the children out to Cherryvale or Ormeau Park, both having substantial and well maintain play facilities (for free). While there I can watch the local GAA team play on the council provided football and hurling pitches. After giving the children a bath later (with water I don't have to pay extra for), I'll maybe light the stove - a good job, installed it myself and I know it's safe because local building control came down and certified it (for free). While they were there they took away the old bulky one I couldn't lift (for free). When the children are all down, I might go out for a pint again in a nice clean and hygienic hostelry with jacks you aren't afraid to walk into, because the local council inspect it on a regular basis.

You do realise all these things you get for free have to be paid for by somebody in the UK, right?

[Billys Boots]

I hear what you're saying - as I say, the only difference is in the way in which you are paying.  In RoI you pay as you use - in NI you pay upfront whether you use it or not.  The only difference I can see is that waste refuse services are no longer within the remit of local government in RoI; you must commission them privately.  Everything else you mention is covered by local govt here, as far as I know. 

[Ulick]

Let me see. On a Thursday night I can put my bin out and have it collected first thing on a Friday morning for no extra charge. After taking a half day I can take the children over to the swimming pool paying about £3 for the hour (a nice clean and hygienic one at that). After that I can shoot down the toll-free M1 and visit the animal and rare breed sanctuary petting farm at Tannaghmore Gardens (for free) - hell I'll even throw a few logs in the boot of the car for burning later. Then I can either visit the substantial and well maintained play-park or take a nature walk around Oxford Island Nature Reserve (again for no charge and throwing a few logs in the boot). On my way home to Belfast, I'll maybe pick-up a takeaway at the local chipper, it's a good one, clean and hygienic - I know that from the 'stars on the door' sticker provided by my local council. After dinner I might take the children out to Cherryvale or Ormeau Park, both having substantial and well maintain play facilities (for free). While there I can watch the local GAA team play on the council provided football and hurling pitches. After giving the children a bath later (with water I don't have to pay extra for), I'll maybe light the stove - a good job, installed it myself and I know it's safe because local building control came down and certified it (for free). While they were there they took away the old bulky one I couldn't lift (for free). When the children are all down, I might go out for a pint again in a nice clean and hygienic hostelry with jacks you aren't afraid to walk into, because the local council inspect it on a regular basis.

You do realise all these things you get for free have to be paid for by somebody in the UK, right?

No they not, they're paid for by the rate payers in the council area. The councils might get specific grants from the DOE for certain capital expenditure but in the main they're all whole financed by the rate payer.

[deiseach]

No they not, they're paid for by the rate payers in the council area. The councils might get specific grants from the DOE for certain capital expenditure but in the main they're all whole financed by the rate payer.

Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?

[Ulick]

I hear what you're saying - as I say, the only difference is in the way in which you are paying.  In RoI you pay as you use - in NI you pay upfront whether you use it or not.  The only difference I can see is that waste refuse services are no longer within the remit of local government in RoI; you must commission them privately.  Everything else you mention is covered by local govt here, as far as I know.

Well Billy I've yet to come across a council funded leisure centre in the south and I wish I knew where they are because the commercial ones I've visited are filthily dangerous holes. I'm a regular visitor to Johnstown Castle, the nearest there is to a public park in the area we stay in and there you pay for parking and to get into the attached museum. Frig the brother-in-law tried to get some wedding photos taken there a while back and they wanted money for that an all. As for council play facilities - I wasn't joking about clearing away needles - take a look at the one in New Ross. While we're on New Ross  €30 to stick your head round an oul boat for 20 minutes - get the feck!

[Ulick]

No they not, they're paid for by the rate payers in the council area. The councils might get specific grants from the DOE for certain capital expenditure but in the main they're all whole financed by the rate payer.

Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?

What's your point deiseach?

[deiseach]

Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?

What's your point deiseach?

Are you seriously not getting the point? You pay for it at the point of entry or someone pays for it with their taxes. You can argue the toss over which is the superior method, but nothing comes for free.

[Ulick]

Are the rate payers not 'somebody'?

What's your point deiseach?

Are you seriously not getting the point? You pay for it at the point of entry or someone pays for it with their taxes. You can argue the toss over which is the superior method, but nothing comes for free.

What are you wittering on about - go back and read the paragraph before the one you quoted.

[deiseach]

What are you wittering on about - go back and read the paragraph before the one you quoted.

I saw that, where you noted that rate payers in the North are paying £1,200 for local services. Yet in the paragraph I quoted you say all the services are free. Let me put it this way. If you were the type of person who didn't avail of this list of services to which you refer - bin collection is the only one that is common to all households - you're being utterly ripped off for all those 'free' services.

[Ulick]

What are you wittering on about - go back and read the paragraph before the one you quoted.

I saw that, where you noted that rate payers in the North are paying £1,200 for local services. Yet in the paragraph I quoted you say all the services are free. Let me put it this way. If you were the type of person who didn't avail of this list of services to which you refer - bin collection is the only one that is common to all households - you're being utterly ripped off for all those 'free' services.

You're just being pedantic deiseach.

[Billys Boots]

I hear what you're saying - as I say, the only difference is in the way in which you are paying.  In RoI you pay as you use - in NI you pay upfront whether you use it or not.  The only difference I can see is that waste refuse services are no longer within the remit of local government in RoI; you must commission them privately.  Everything else you mention is covered by local govt here, as far as I know.

Well Billy I've yet to come across a council funded leisure centre in the south and I wish I knew where they are because the commercial ones I've visited are filthily dangerous holes. I'm a regular visitor to Johnstown Castle, the nearest there is to a public park in the area we stay in and there you pay for parking and to get into the attached museum. Frig the brother-in-law tried to get some wedding photos taken there a while back and they wanted money for that an all. As for council play facilities - I wasn't joking about clearing away needles - take a look at the one in New Ross. While we're on New Ross  €30 to stick your head round an oul boat for 20 minutes - get the feck!

OK, we've an excellent public playground in my community (Fingal CC area) (free); we've a very good public park (free); we've a new, modern, clean leisure centre (free for most things).  We've three tended beaches, all of which are cleaned regularly by the council - we don't pay to use them or their adjacent parking facilities.  I come from a very rural parish in North Longford - it has a playground (free); it has some public park areas beside Lough Gowna (free to use and free parking), but no leisure centre (nearest in Longford town, don't know about charges).  Mrs Boots comes from Killala in Mayo - it has a public playground (free); it has a leisure centre (free); it has a beautiful attended beach (free access and free parking). 

I don't know what's going on in Wexford - perhaps it's not as well funded due to visitor numbers' maybe they're expected to fund these things through the tourism 'purse', which is hardly ideal.