Opposition at Stormont?

[Ulick]

Lads the six counties is not a functioning democracy, most likely never will be and as such the toy town Parliament will stay just as it is. So the UUP or the SDLP for that matter can go into opposition all they want for all the difference it would make, which is none. The power at Stormont is wielded by the power-sharing Executive not the Assembly, so if one or other Parties which to exclude themselves from that, good luck to them but I wouldn't expect everyone else to fall in behind them unless we are all prepared for a renegotiation of the GFA and you can be sure if we re-run that process again we'll be back to square one with nationalists demanding more reflecting their increased electoral strength and unionists threatening blood on the streets. Ain't going to happen. Toy town will stay until it is renegotiated as part of a wider constitutional deal with the only realistic options being: (i) reunited Ireland, (ii) independent six counties, (iii)  full integration with the UK (iv) joint sovereignty. 

[Ulick]

Lads the six counties is not a functioning democracy, most likely never will be and as such the toy town Parliament will stay just as it is. So the UUP or the SDLP for that matter can go into opposition all they want for all the difference it would make, which is none. The power at Stormont is wielded by the power-sharing Executive not the Assembly, so if one or other Parties which to exclude themselves from that, good luck to them but I wouldn't expect everyone else to fall in behind them unless we are all prepared for a renegotiation of the GFA and you can be sure if we re-run that process again we'll be back to square one with nationalists demanding more reflecting their increased electoral strength and unionists threatening blood on the streets. Ain't going to happen. Toy town will stay until it is renegotiated as part of a wider constitutional deal with the only realistic options being: (i) reunited Ireland, (ii) independent six counties, (iii)  full integration with the UK (iv) joint sovereignty.

The Good Friday Agreement was only a beginning, not an end - there is absolutely nothing to stop reform of the political process at the Assembly something like the St. Andrew's agreement. Nothing is ever set in stone and to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. It's now at a point where it is a nicely carved up duopoly whereas Stormont v1.0 was a similar monopoly. For both the UUP and SDLP, the main problem for them is ego of wanting a ministerial post rather than give a principled opposition to the executive. If you leave the border question out IMO the SDLP and UUP have more in common than the DUP & Sinn Fein, and could pick at the cracks between the two. They may as well go into opposition, they certainly have nothing to lose right now doing so.

As I said, they lose power i.e. Executive seats for nothing in return. St. Andrew's tinkered around the edges to get the DUP on board, there was no substantial change. You may want to transform the north into an English canton like Wales, there is isn't a chance in hell SF are going to buy it, or the DUP for that matter.

[Ulick]

I thought you said this was a "toy town" assembly? Anyway, neither the SDLP, UUP or Alliance outside of David Ford outside of policing have any real effective power other than a few token ministries thanks to D'Hondt, it's in the hands of Sinn Fein and the DUP. If the SDLP and UUP pulled out of the executive, things would carry on as normal. But if either the DUP or Sinn Fein did, they'd be a problem on our hands. If the SDLP & UUP organised an effective opposition, they could decide shadow executive or spokesperson positions into holding the relevant ministers into account as is the case in most other democratic institutions. At present that isn't the case other than in the form of the one-man TUV ranter, which does little for scrutiny.

I'm not sure what's worse, trying to put words into my mouth or the playing of the "West-Brit" card. 

They already do that in the Committees. I say again, the six counties isn't a normal democratic state and fundamentally never can be so the normalisation of a Northern Ireland state as you seem to wish for will not happen.   

[Evil Genius]

I say again, the six counties isn't a normal democratic state

NI is a region of a Nation State which has limited powers devolved to it, via a democratically elected local Assembly.
The only substantive difference between it and comparable regions with limited self-government (eg Scotland/Wales, Spanish Autonomous Communities, German Lander etc) is that NI has had an additional compulsory power-sharing element.
Therefore if this compulsory element were to be removed, and replaced by conventional majoritarianist government, it would look little different from most other devolved Governments, including those with a strong separatist element (eg Scotland, Basque region).
Personally, although I accept that it is still too early for Nationalist fears to be completely allayed, I would like to see the Assembly move towards a more conventional Government/Opposition model, as soon as feasible, since any Executive needs properly to be held to account. And I feel that this could work, since although Unionism will retain an overall majority for the foreseeable future, it should also remain so fractured that voluntary coalition government across the divide will be the order of the day, thereby protecting the interests of Nationalists.

... and fundamentally never can be so

You wish!
The fact is, NI has existed for over 90 years, which makes it more enduring than 75% of the countries in the world today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_League_of_Nations  (see 1921)

... so the normalisation of a Northern Ireland state...     ... will not happen.   

It already is  happening, Donagh Ulick.

Or didn't you even notice that you've just typed those two words that must never be used together yourself, capitalised and all?

 

[Ulick]

Northern Ireland came about as a compromise that didn't really suit anyone, was seen as temporary but ended up more or less permanent in unease that was like an unwanted b**tard child. Not ideal, but that's what has to be lived with today. And it is not necessarily the case that I see or want the "normalisation of a Northern Ireland state" but rather that what currently constitutes it has local accountability by local people in office as a general principle of subsidiarity, and this goes not only for the Stormont assembly but also for the local councils. Once again you try to second guess what it is that I "wish for" when you haven't a clue so I will repeat, don't try and put words into my mouth.

As for the Assembly committees, any party leaving the Executive wouldn't change the membership and make up of them, and membership already includes MLAs whose parties are not part of the Executive e.g. Jim Allister on Employment and Learning and Stephen Agnew on Enterprise, Trade & Investment. So pulling out would not mean loss of committee membership.

Nah, sorry you're welcome to that interpretation of history, I'll respectfully disagree.

[Maguire01]

The Assembly will be around for the forseeable future. I don't see any reason why we should aspire to better government for that period.

[Maguire01]

Lads the six counties is not a functioning democracy, most likely never will be and as such the toy town Parliament will stay just as it is. So the UUP or the SDLP for that matter can go into opposition all they want for all the difference it would make, which is none. The power at Stormont is wielded by the power-sharing Executive not the Assembly, so if one or other Parties which to exclude themselves from that, good luck to them but I wouldn't expect everyone else to fall in behind them unless we are all prepared for a renegotiation of the GFA and you can be sure if we re-run that process again we'll be back to square one with nationalists demanding more reflecting their increased electoral strength and unionists threatening blood on the streets. Ain't going to happen. Toy town will stay until it is renegotiated as part of a wider constitutional deal with the only realistic options being: (i) reunited Ireland, (ii) independent six counties, (iii)  full integration with the UK (iv) joint sovereignty.

The Good Friday Agreement was only a beginning, not an end - there is absolutely nothing to stop reform of the political process at the Assembly something like the St. Andrew's agreement. Nothing is ever set in stone and to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. It's now at a point where it is a nicely carved up duopoly whereas Stormont v1.0 was a similar monopoly. For both the UUP and SDLP, the main problem for them is ego of wanting a ministerial post rather than give a principled opposition to the executive. If you leave the border question out IMO the SDLP and UUP have more in common than the DUP & Sinn Fein, and could pick at the cracks between the two. They may as well go into opposition, they certainly have nothing to lose right now doing so.

As I said, they lose power i.e. Executive seats for nothing in return. St. Andrew's tinkered around the edges to get the DUP on board, there was no substantial change. You may want to transform the north into an English canton like Wales, there is isn't a chance in hell SF are going to buy it, or the DUP for that matter.

The north (i.e. NI) might well become a canton of Ireland. I think that's definitely one option that has to be considered - the Assembly remaining as a regional government under the Dail. That appear's to be the SDLP's proposal on a United Ireland and, in my opinion, is more likely to convince unionists (together with the appropriate economic arguments) than 32 counties solely governed from Dublin.

[ziggysego]

You wish!
The fact is, NI has existed for over 90 years, which makes it more enduring than 75% of the countries in the world today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_League_of_Nations  (see 1921)

Yeah and look out that turned out! I wouldn't trust a Unionist led Stormont here again.

[glens abu]

You wish!
The fact is, NI has existed for over 90 years, which makes it more enduring than 75% of the countries in the world today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_League_of_Nations  (see 1921)

Yeah and look out that turned out! I wouldn't trust a Unionist led Stormont here again.

It will never happen again as they cannot be trusted,just look at the problems they still have in sharing power in councils like Lisburn and Newtownabbey were they have a big majority.They really believe they are the chosen people and they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. ,but we are up for the challenge.